12-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree martinshorn Germany Posts 114 Joined on 04-14-2017 Post #: 181 Post ID: 24599 Reply to: 23249 If you could start from the beginning... Hi Romy  you mentioned once somewhere, knowing upfront youd add the resonance channel, you had it all done different.What particularly you would make different in your system?   cheers, Josh

12-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,373 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 182 Post ID: 24600 Reply to: 24599 What if…. Josh, this was an excellent question and I was asking myself the same question a lot during the different stages of my understanding of the Macondo architecture. I would not call it “resonance channel” but rather the “injection channel” as it not actually adds any resonances but we understand what the question implies. So, here is the thoughts that I have. If I design Macondo from scratch and knowing what I know how about employing the injection channel then I would make the following things different:    1)      I would provide more prominent location for my Injection Channel, in vertically aligned position, probably between tweeter and fundamental channel. Probably I would put it in a tube, trying to keep the face footprint as low as possible.      2)      I would spend less efforts on MF DSET as I feel that a proper selection of Injection Channel, driver might very might override the efforts over DHT of MF channel.    3)      As I would know the dimension of my Injection Channel enclosure I would put the high pas filter in the Injection Channel amplifier. Even though my Injection Channel drives now my midbass there is no need to have a speak-level filter at midbass. The inner stage cap inside the Milq would do the duty perfectly fine, in addition protecting the Injection Channel OPT from any saturation of overpowering.      Rgs, Romy the Cat "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree martinshorn Germany Posts 114 Joined on 04-14-2017 Post #: 183 Post ID: 24601 Reply to: 24600 In the middle??? Hi Romy  Im just trying to imagine that. If you got to keep the vertical offset small, between the ways, this would rip a hole in the middle, wouldnt it ?  Also bit surprising as i thought you liked the injector on the ground initially.  I hope I understood correctly from your posts, a horizontal offset is a no go always for all channels? (would be convinient to put the injector on the side)  Also a distance offset (traveling time from channel to ear, or as some may call it time alignment) is not possible? (would be convinient to put the injector behind the tweeters)  Then not much left of options, only on the top, which is too high, in the middle it rips the channels apart.  Last option, ground level, would elevate the fundamental channel to the very top, which is a dramatic loss of 6dB gain not to have the floor as a horn-mirror-boost...Im lost there.  cheers,Josh

12-13-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,373 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 184 Post ID: 24602 Reply to: 24601 I will do it when I have time. I do not advocate injector on the ground. The way how I use my injector I high pass is aggressively, so the ground coupling is not a requirement. If somebody use injection at lower octaves then it might be a merit to do so but not in context of my injection.    It is absolutely prohibitive in my view to have injection with arrival offset, the time aliment is absolutely mandatory. Now, there is very valid debatable question. If you for instance locate injection channel above the teeter then you have less tight vertical horns island. If you have the injection channel located on the side of the tweeter then you have more compact horns configuration but you introduce a horizontal offset and probably too much reflection from the tweeter.  What approach provides more damage to sound? I would have difficulty to answer this question. I did the vertical alignment and did not experiment with horizontal offset. The vertical alignment, since the injection has high output in top octaves, does damage imaging to a degree. Will this damage be more or less if I use horizontal offset? I do not have the answer. I bought 6 months back of so a coupe, of 10” tubes incisures and as I have time I was planning to put the 10” Tannoy in there and try it horizontally offset injectors. The problem is that I do not have now any good harness to hold it on my frame to assure a stable time positioning and time alignment. I will go for this when I have time. "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-12-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree anthony Posts 355 Joined on 08-18-2014 Post #: 185 Post ID: 25514 Reply to: 24602 Injection? Looks a little familiar... http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html

06-25-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree IronManIV Posts 6 Joined on 12-25-2022 Post #: 186 Post ID: 28268 Reply to: 25514 Another Injection Driver As another option to try an injection channel I am thinking the vintage RCA SL12 might work. I don’t know if it has any syrupy quality, but I think it does have nice tone and is full range. It can do the 125 to 10k. These are hard to find but many of the 12” console drivers from Jensen and Magnavox look identical. Light paper cone, corrugated surround. Small dia. Light voice coil. I have listened to this by itself, I think I will try it sometime if I can figure out where to locate it.

06-26-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,373 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 187 Post ID: 28269 Reply to: 28268 Another color-numb tweeter? Nowadays, I do not feel that the “injection channel” was such a great idea. It certainly was very beneficial in the exact way I used it. The 10 Red is very syrupy, and its syrup is very potent. I conducted numerous experiments with and without the injection channel, and there is no doubt in my mind that the injection channel is a promising direction to pursue. Still, the injection channel would not be an option, in my view, if the drivers in the main system have proper tone and the colorization of sound with good “colorful” drivers would not be necessary. I think in retrospect, the whole idea of the injection channel came to me because I used color-numb tweeters. The Ribbon would do it to a person. The color injection is a valuable tool, but it cannot be generalized. It needs to be a very specific driver projected to a very specific listening objective. "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-26-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree IronManIV Posts 6 Joined on 12-25-2022 Post #: 188 Post ID: 28270 Reply to: 28269 Generalized vs. System Specific Color Understood. I had noticed that the injection channel experiment was challenging to describe subjectively in a way that avoided specific solutions for general effect. For example ideas to use piano wood for cabinets as "injection" in context of the original experiment and results. And, currently the specific experience of Amp X and Aura and Bill's system currently in a specific experiment context waiting for generalized description, if any can be made. I would like to offer a report on a driver with color or tone, but I don't have the aural experience or vocabulary to be a credible reporter, but nonetheless, I think that the paper compression driver diaphragms from voice_of_steppe on ebay may have some interesting qualities. I've been listening to them and I am delighted, but I can't say I have any reference for comparison to be credible. But they are so inexpensive for what they are and I don't think anyone from Absolute Soundistan are going to appreciate them. I can't even say I hear tone. I can't really describe what I hear when I listen to these on my 808 CD's and my 800 hz. Le Cleach horn, except I'll try to say, that there is moment of dynamic loudness of a female voice or higher pitched string that will really bloom to full room excitement and escape localization. I don't think my little 800 hz. horn I made has great dispersion, it should be a bit narrow above 2k, but these sounds escape the beaming in any room I place it. Maybe the Le Cleach mouth avoids diffraction, I don't know. I don't hear any tone, but I do hear nuances in the tones which differentiate say a harp string from a piano wire. The tone if any of the driver is clear and clean. I fail miserably to repeat this quality of sound with larger devices. I have a pair of these diaphragms for a 288 as well in the lite copper voice coil version and 16 ohm that I look forward to trying in the 288's. voice_of_steppe will make any impedance requested. I love these diaphragms so much for their tactile and aesthetic qualities that I think I need to spend a lot of time with them to understand what they are doing, and of course trying to keep alignment in the 288 from ruining everything. Jamie

06-26-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,774 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 189 Post ID: 28271 Reply to: 28269 Ribbons vs. CDs vs. Range vs. Tone Years ago I got acceptable HF running RTR electrostatic tweeter arrays over Peerless paper tweeters. Those paper tweeters worked at suprisingly high frequencies, at least they did using the sources and amps in the system I had at the time (not to mention, with that experience and expectations). Those HF drivers had a pretty wide overlap. I never thought of those RTR super tweeters as having tone or color, rather they provided "air" and coherent details. I used the same idea again with Fountek ribbons, running them parallel for a while, using them for air and detail over paper drivers. Now I have (18 Sound) CDs/horns from 1,200Hz to >9k, and I use Visaton TL16H CDs/horns above those. In this case, I do get some color from the UHF drivers, and with the CDs/horns below them I am glad for that color in the X/O range! YMMV, of course, but the difference between color and colorized remains important to me. Paul S

06-26-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,373 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 190 Post ID: 28272 Reply to: 28270 A significant question for which I have no answer It is tough to evaluate a tone. We would always like to go for a strong and flamboyant tone, similar to the colors in the movie “Shadow of Forgotten Ancestors”. We know that it is not a reality, but Vincent van Gogh’s type of colors. Soon or later, we grow tired of it and reduce the colors, and here is when the exact ability of the injection channel to dial in the color output very precisely comes in handy. As the output of my audio practice, I tend to provide a complete solution that is appropriately balanced. For instance, the 7-ch Milq amp was perfectly balanced to be neutral from multiple points of view in contact with the drivers I used. The same is true for the specificity of using the S2 driver or the Tannoy 10 Red driver as a tweeter. All of them are tested and evaluated solutions. I do not have any tested solutions for the Injection channels. I have tried one solution with Tannoy 10 Red, I know how to use it, and I did not try anything else. Nowadays, I use a combination of S2 drive and Tannoy 10 Red as a tweeter, and I do not see any need to use the Injection channel; the need is no longer there. I use it in my primary system and in my corner-loaded system, the same MF/HF configuration. I no longer advocate the Injection channel, but instead I recommend using color-capable drivers. To determine the proper amount and depth of colors for a ready-to-go driver is a significant question for which I have no answer. "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Amir Iran Tehran Posts 381 Joined on 02-11-2009 Post #: 191 Post ID: 28274 Reply to: 28272 Good Tone When AC power quality is perfect, When Speakers are in DPOLS, When Amplifier Speaker are perfect match, When the SNR is perfect (less distortion, no ground loop, less RF, less induction, less EMI, …), When the digital or analog source is perfect  Then I prefer more neutral tone so There is no need to have tannoy or … When AC power quality is not perfect, When Speakers are not in DPOLS, When the SNR is not perfect, When the digital or analog source are not perfect  Then I prefer less neutral more beautiful tone of tannoy … Actually good tone (for example tannoy or vitavox S2) help us to enjoy music in normal setup. This is a complex subject and my description is very simplified. www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir

06-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,774 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 192 Post ID: 28276 Reply to: 28274 Elevator Music With all the problems (from so many sources) we deal with, it's a wonder anyone can put together a system that renders complex Music in his/her own listening room. We say, speakers/amps/room first, and IMO this is, indeed, the place to start. If ones idea of complex Music includes Tone (+ timbre, harmonics and texture), then options for speakers thin out drastically, right out of the gate. Add real dynamics and you are (realistically) down to very few options. I think this is why most audiophile demonstrations are more about sound than Music, and demos that are about Music rigorously limit the Music in terms of complexity and dynamics. We have threads on this site where people mention drivers, but it goes without saying that it's always about the specific implementation, where and how a given driver is employed, in terms of its ultimate, realizable performance. Read the "pro" threads bitching about the factory Altec and JBL CDs vs. their own horns and X/Os. Been there, done that. System topology is at the root of total performance "potential", including the drivers, themselves; however, expectations are the taproot of any system as it is ultimately used. Elevators are OK for listening to elevator music. Paul S

06-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Amir Iran Tehran Posts 381 Joined on 02-11-2009 Post #: 193 Post ID: 28277 Reply to: 28276 Tone Paul, maybe I should correct my pervious post and describe my idea in better way. I think when everything is perfect (dpols, electricity quality, …) in comparison by non-perfect conditions you don’t get same results with same speaker driver. One of the complexity of audio is here. www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir

06-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,774 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 194 Post ID: 28278 Reply to: 28277 Getting the Most From What's Available Amir, I understood that's what you meant. I just want to emphasize that getting "everything" under any circumstances requires first and foremost a topology that *can* deliver the goods. As Romy pointed out, some drivers just aren't going to do some things (tone, for instance...), and the "toxic" (Romy's word...) sound additive from the 10" Red comes with its own price. Best regards, Paul S

06-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Amir Iran Tehran Posts 381 Joined on 02-11-2009 Post #: 195 Post ID: 28279 Reply to: 28278 Speaker Driver Romy Absolute Tone  http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=1249 www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir

07-01-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,774 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 196 Post ID: 28280 Reply to: 28279 20 Years Blew By Like Nothing... That 2005 post mentions some tone-capable drivers without suggesting their use as "resonant oops" machines, while Romy's last post before this one in this thread mentions he found a better way to get tone. I have to say, I was somewhat surprised (and thoroughly tickled) that - after all his experimenting - the value he ultimately found and carried on with from the Tannoy Red was its tweeter, which he specifically used to help the S2 up top, replacing the RAAL. Meanwhile, I love my current compression drivers, but I freely admit that compression drivers are not the last word in tone, per se, rather I found and developed some that have enough tone (for me, for now), along with qualities I want that more tone-capable drivers do not have, specifically serious dynamic range and power. I guess I was lucky to wind up with paper drivers that can play on a level field with the CDs/horns I'm using, but such pairings are not gimmies, and I believe there are less-dynamic paper drivers that might do better tone in a system developed specifically to do that. Gotta make those choices... As for resonant oops, per se, it's not on my radar, for pretty much the reasons Romy alluded to. Paul S

07-01-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Amir Iran Tehran Posts 381 Joined on 02-11-2009 Post #: 197 Post ID: 28281 Reply to: 28280 Sensitivity Paul, Good Tone is a complex subject, there are many parameters that affects on tone and it is very hard to control it and reach favorite tone.For example wall or floor or ceiling surfaces affect on tone. I prefer thin natural wood surfaces …Room shape affects on tone and you can not scape it.Another example is silver cable, silver easily change the tone.It means Tone/Harmonics are very sensitive to many parameters so it is not easy to control it. www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir

07-01-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,774 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 198 Post ID: 28282 Reply to: 28281 Starting With Drivers That Will Do "It" Amir, yes, it's a complex process, with a lot of parts and variables, but I think the holdover from the 2005 post is that the drivers either will or won't do "it", to begin with. More recently we've discussed driver (and system) own sound as a factor that can "work both ways" in terms of facilitatiing or even exaggerating tone, usually certain "aspects of tone". I like to steer people away from the popular notion that they can read a post, buy and install a named component, and get absolute tone, and that will do "it". Fortunately, we have our own ears and sense of aesthetics that we can use to guide us over time. Absent that, it is really only fooling around with complicated, expensive toys. Of course taste might (likely) change over time, as well, but that does not change the concept. Best regards, Paul S

07-01-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree IronManIV Posts 6 Joined on 12-25-2022 Post #: 199 Post ID: 28283 Reply to: 28282 Tone and colored devices, or secondary acoustic source? Paul, you would know this very well since you contributed to this thread from the beginning, but I think focusing on the coloration of individual devices is putting the emphasis in the wrong place, and I think Amir is onto something. When you say "drivers will or wont' do "it", to begin with" is the holdover, I think this is the wrong learning from the experiment. This is very understandable since a lot of the discussion was about the particular coloration of the Tannoy Red and Romy discussed this at length. But, the technical summation of what was done is said like this by Romy, "So, after many experiments of trying to imitate this “Resonating Oops” and constant failures I asked myself why juts do not combine the fidelity, dynamic and presentation of Macondo with strategically injected “Resonating Oops”? I begin experimenting with the “Injection Channel”, using Red 10”, equalizing, positioning, aligning and tuning it by measurements and by ears. Eventually I’ve found a very interesting configuration where the Injection Channel is driven by a separate full range Milq and here the Injection Channel does work very-very wonderful. I drive the Injection Channel at 8dB-10dB below Macondo, flat from 10K down to ~125Hz. The Injection Channel is in phase (acoustically) with Macondo and precisely time aligned (very auditable). Injection Channel does not REALLY affect the Macondo response (it affects within 1/4dB are very FEW frequencies)." I think the takeaways are much different from the focus on the device itself and what I think this is about something quite different or includes many things. First, the secondary acoustic source is WIDEBAND. Romy says he's using a full range Milq channel and the driver is "flat from 10k down to 125 hz." The driver is attenuated by 8db to 10db relative to Macondo. That's a lot of attenuation. And finally, and not discussed, is that although the Injection Channel is time aligned, it is NOT vertically aligned with the other drivers. We know that Romy assiduously vertically aligned the Macondo, but he did not do this for the Injection Channel. Why not? What does this mean? It could be important. So, we start with a system, Macondo that is uncolored, and a secondary sounds source with very wideband is introduced off axis. I don't think this is accidental since Romy is equally interested in reverberation and room effects as well as driver "tone", which he has said he is not even sure how to describe. I think an equally valid hypothesis or generalization of the Macondo experiment, along the lines of Amir's perspective, is that the Injection Channel does something to the reverberant field in the room by adding a second acoustic source that is wideband and off axis to the direct sound drivers, and this might not have anything to do with the driver's tone or coloration. Or, it's both, or we say we don't know, but what was done is much more than just changing a drivers tone and to say the holdover is "driver's will or won't do "it"" is an extraction of generality of learning that is just not supported by the experiment. Not at all. I apologize for using your post as my anchor for these observations, but your discussion with Amir starts to illuminate an interesting dichotomy of perspectives or conclusions about the Injection Channel that might serve to explore the topic further by the contrast. Cheers, Jamie

07-01-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,774 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 200 Post ID: 28284 Reply to: 28283 Tying a Bell on the Cat's Tail Well, I follow your logic in your context, Jamie, and I hope you will share your results here, including something about the Music you're listening to as you make your determinations. I am not so certain about the "given-ness" of the neutral system described as the basis for res/oops testing and evaluations, but if one has the time, money and determination, why not give it a go? You might just wind up with a super-tweeter! Best regards, Paul S