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  »  New  The commercial music servers...  Touch screen remote...  Didital Things  Forum     37  335025  01-10-2008
  »  New  About the DAW playback software...  Best hardware with best software...  Didital Things  Forum     11  102405  03-22-2008
  »  New  Recording/Playback software..  Free stuff...  Didital Things  Forum     14  100794  08-24-2008
  »  New  To Rip or not to Rip...  Ripping with better playback...  Didital Things  Forum     2  33078  03-18-2009
  »  New  The contra-ridicules solution for a good DAW?..  Happy to see this thread...  Didital Things  Forum     1  32024  06-18-2009
  »  New  DAW drives configuration and backup strategies...  Not expensive to recover DATA, avoid Corporate Recovery...  Didital Things  Forum     3  38607  10-05-2009
  »  New  Weiss Engineering DAC202..  Attenuation...  Didital Things  Forum     5  51267  06-21-2010
  »  New  Pacific Microsonics Model Two: What Platform, Software ..  XLR to RCA adaptor. Watch out...  Didital Things  Forum     1  27080  03-17-2011
  »  New  Windows Based Transport: A quiet and capable Source?..  DAE Firmware quality...  Didital Things  Forum     47  287970  11-01-2011
  »  New  Memory Player Box?..  Maybe I will not order the Pure Teflon capacitors after...  Didital Things  Forum     2  46301  11-03-2011
  »  New  Why I hate computer playback...  Higher power cpu...  Didital Things  Forum     17  124997  04-16-2012
06-07-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 161
Post ID: 24922
Reply to: 24829
AES67
Hi.

Anyone in here have experience with AES67 (aka RAVENNA) interfaces? This kind of networked interface are getting a lot of traction on the pro-market.

I am particulary interested on the Merging HAPI.


Thanks!



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
09-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 299
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 164
Post ID: 25094
Reply to: 25024
Dbpoweramp Ripping vary by different reading passes
my experience in ripping audio CD with dbpoweramp shows even in ultra Secure mode we get different result with different number of passes.



the result in 3 different passes :the CD was in good condition but it has little scratch .
=========================================================================================










dBpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:06 10:02:07
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 2,  Max Passes: 4,  Finish After Clean Passes: 2Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 3
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------
Track 1:  Ripped LBA 0 to 48997 (10:53) in 12:01. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/01  - Track 1.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: F808C94F
Track 2:  Ripped LBA 48997 to 112629 (14:08) in 22:32. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/02  - Track 2.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: 31855818
Track 3:  Ripped LBA 112629 to 175742 (14:01) in 23:08. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/03  - Track 3.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: 21C90611
Track 4:  Ripped LBA 175742 to 223547 (10:37) in 18:41. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/04  - Track 4.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2, Re-Rip 3 Frames]  CRC32: 1E1D012A    Re-rip Frame: 222167 (00:10:19.000). Insecure  (c2 dropped 2) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222168 (00:10:19.013). Insecure  (c2 dropped 3) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222806 (00:10:27.520) matched 10 / 11
Track 5:  Ripped LBA 223547 to 308527 (18:53) in 30:55. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/05  - Track 5.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: FA47C164  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.
--------------
5 Tracks Ripped: 4 Secure, 1 Inaccurate

=========================================================================================










dBpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:08 09:44:44
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 3,  Max Passes: 5,  Finish After Clean Passes: 3Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 3
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------



dBpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:08 09:46:35
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 3,  Max Passes: 5,  Finish After Clean Passes: 3Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 4
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------
Track 1:  Ripped LBA 0 to 48997 (10:53) in 5:21. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/01  - Track 1.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3]  CRC32: F808C94F
Track 2:  Ripped LBA 48997 to 112629 (14:08) in 6:57. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/02  - Track 2.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3]  CRC32: 31855818
Track 3:  Ripped LBA 112629 to 175742 (14:01) in 7:02. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/03  - Track 3.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3]  CRC32: 21C90611
Track 4:  Ripped LBA 175742 to 223547 (10:37) in 6:20. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/04  - Track 4.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3, Re-Rip 8 Frames]  CRC32: 1E1D012A    Re-rip Frame: 185719 (00:02:13.026) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 214884 (00:08:41.893). Insecure  (c2 dropped 8) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 221942 (00:10:16.000) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 2)    Re-rip Frame: 222167 (00:10:19.000). Insecure  (c2 dropped 4) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222168 (00:10:19.013). Insecure  (c2 dropped 7) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222581 (00:10:24.520) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 222713 (00:10:26.280). Insecure  (c2 dropped 1) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 223484 (00:10:36.560). Insecure  (c2 dropped 9) [c2 best match]
Track 5:  Ripped LBA 223547 to 308527 (18:53) in 10:08. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/05  - Track 5.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3, Re-Rip 4 Frames]  CRC32: FA47C164  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.    Re-rip Frame: 224709 (00:00:15.493). Insecure  (c2 dropped 2) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 224710 (00:00:15.506). Insecure  (c2 dropped 3) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 225729 (00:00:29.093) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 225730 (00:00:29.106) matched 10 / 11
--------------
5 Tracks Ripped: 3 Secure, 2 Inaccurate

=========================================================================================










Bpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:08 10:35:32
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 8,  Max Passes: 10,  Finish After Clean Passes: 8Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 15
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------
Track 1:  Ripped LBA 0 to 48997 (10:53) in 11:54. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/01  - Track 1.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8]  CRC32: F808C94F
Track 2:  Ripped LBA 48997 to 112629 (14:08) in 15:45. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/02  - Track 2.aiff  Secure (Warning)  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 1 Frames]  CRC32: 31855818    Re-rip Frame: 84665 (00:07:55.573) matched 10 / 11
Track 3:  Ripped LBA 112629 to 175742 (14:01) in 54:43. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/03  - Track 3.aiff  Secure (Warning)  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 2 Frames]  CRC32: 21C90611    Re-rip Frame: 117101 (00:00:59.626) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 122074 (00:02:05.933) matched 10 / 11
Track 4:  Ripped LBA 175742 to 223547 (10:37) in 54:59. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/04  - Track 4.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 5 Frames]  CRC32: 1E1D012A    Re-rip Frame: 214884 (00:08:41.893) matched 10 / 12  (c2 dropped 1)    Re-rip Frame: 222167 (00:10:19.000) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 3)    Re-rip Frame: 222168 (00:10:19.013) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 1)    Re-rip Frame: 222713 (00:10:26.280) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 1)    Re-rip Frame: 223484 (00:10:36.560). Insecure  (c2 dropped 9) [c2 best match]
Track 5:  Ripped LBA 223547 to 308527 (18:53) in 1:35:04. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/05  - Track 5.aiff  Secure (Warning)  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 2 Frames]  CRC32: FA47C164  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.    Re-rip Frame: 226203 (00:00:35.413) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 242576 (00:04:13.720) matched 10 / 11
--------------
5 Tracks Ripped: 1 Secure, 3 Secure (Warning), 1 Inaccurate
09-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 299
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 165
Post ID: 25095
Reply to: 25094
Accuracy
my experience in ripping by dbpoweramp and apple super drive:
if the disc be 100% OK (100% healthy production in press factory ) with no scratch then the ripped data will not vary by more "reading passes" or "slower reading".
It seems healthy disc could be ripped OK .
if production quality of disc in factory be bad or you find some scratches on the disk then the ripping data vary by reading speed or by number of reading passes.
09-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dedobot
Posts 8
Joined on 08-25-2018

Post #: 166
Post ID: 25097
Reply to: 25095
EAC, CD/DVD drive
Try EAC, it have more detailed setting/logs.Also the CD/DVD drive is very important - I had a chance to test/choose from 20+ drives from my work. Completely different results . Picked one with less errors on scratched discs .
05-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 299
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 167
Post ID: 26779
Reply to: 25097
Computer audio does not sound good
it seems the computer audio problem is not bit errors and even correct bit-perfect digital data (from computer) does not give us good sound.
the wadax new server (computer) does not use digital processing and it only change the digital wave shape. changing the wave shape change the sound.


The Wadax Reference Server I review in this  issue raises some fascinating questions about the fundamental nature of digital audio. Unique for a server, the Wadax has three front-panel controls that allow the user to adjust the amplitude and shape of the digital waveform that represents the music. These controls don’t change the digital ones and zeros, but rather introduce an analog-like variability to the digital bitstream—a radical concept.

Digital audio was supposed to work perfectly or not at all; removing analog-like variability was its raison d’être. Yet early on in digital audio it became apparent that identical bitstreams could sound different if the digital samples were put back together with even the most miniscule timing errors—jitter. Although 30 years later this mechanism is fully understood, it came as a shock to a mindset that viewed digital-audio data as just another form of digital information that could be transmitted or copied endlessly without error. However, unlike other forms of digitally represented data, the end of a digital-audio system is an analog signal that is analyzed by our exquisitely sensitive hearing mechanism. 

Yet for all we’ve learned about digital audio, there’s much that remains a mystery. One such mystery is precisely how adjusting the waveshape’s steepness with the Wadax server’s “Speed” control changes the music’s sense of pace and rhythm. 

The analog-like variability of digital signals has long fascinated me. When I was working in a CD mastering lab in the late 1980s, one of my jobs was investigating technical problems with mastertapes that could lead to issues with replicated discs. One day I learned that a customer, a small, independent music label, was unhappy with the sound of the replicated discs we had made. I spoke with someone in the band, who described how the replicated disc sounded different from the mastertape. This was the first time a customer had complained about the sound quality of a replicated disc.

The sonic differences he described could not be the result of data errors on the disc. For starters, our QC department would have rejected any discs that had uncorrectable errors. CD error correction is extremely robust; it can completely and perfectly correct—not conceal through interpolation—up to 4000 consecutive missing or corrupted bits. Second, such errors would show up as audible glitches, not as, for example, a reduction in soundstage dimensionality.

The first thing I did was compare the data on the customer’s ¾” U-Matic CD mastertape with the data on the replicated disc, using a CD-ROM pre-mastering system. As expected, the data on the mastertape and the data on the replicated CD were identical.  

To the engineers I worked with, that was the end of the story. “Bits is bits,” they said, dismissing the musician’s claims. Because the replicated discs contained data identical to the mastertape, they reasoned, our company had done its job, and any sonic differences were figments of someone’s imagination. These guys were brilliant engineers. They had designed and built, from scratch, the two custom CD mastering machines in our factory—no mean feat. Yet, the audiophile in me was compelled to explore the question, so I cut a new glass master from the customer’s CD mastertape on our second, newly designed mastering machine and had discs replicated. This would enable me to listen to the two discs through the same CD player, something I couldn’t do with the CD mastertape and the replicated disc (the mastertape could be decoded only by a Sony PCM-1630 processor). After verifying that the second disc contained the same data as the mastertape and the first disc, I listened to both discs on my home system. The two discs did, indeed, sound different—the second disc sounded smoother and more dimensional. Without telling the customer what I heard (or about the different mastering machine), he reported that the second disc sounded like what he created in the studio. 

Now, I was really curious. I rented an analyzer that would measure the time periods of the pit and land structures on the CD. The analyzer graphically plotted the precise period of each of the nine discrete pit and land lengths that encode information. The first disc that sounded inferior had a much wider frequency distribution of the signals generated by the pits. The second, better-sounding disc, had a much narrower frequency distribution, indicating that the pit and land lengths were more precise. Moreover, looking at the raw signal from the CD player’s photodetector revealed that the pit-to-land and land-to-pit transitions were cleaner and sharper on the second disc. In essence, jitter was embedded in the disc itself in the physical pit and land structures. It wasn’t surprising that the second CD mastering machine produced less timing variation; its turntable was controlled by a vastly more sophisticated and precise rotational-servo system.

Although this exercise was illuminating, it still didn’t answer the question of how those timing variations on the disc made their way through an enormous amount of complex signal processing (the error-correction decoding alone is mind-boggling) to somehow affect the CD player’s analog output signal. 

That question remains unanswered to this day. Although our knowledge of digital audio has advanced enormously in the last 35 years, there’s still much to be discovered. The conundrum presented by the Wadax Reference Server is simply the latest example. It shows us the limits of our understanding by raising more questions than it answers.


Robert Harley

05-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 168
Post ID: 26780
Reply to: 26779
"Correcting" Audio Problems
Interesting that problems Harley isolated in this case (pits and lands; turntable) were physical/mechanical, utimately "analog", in that sense. I'm glad someone has stayed after it, but not sure how to put this revelation to work to get better Music in my home. Meanwhile, recordists all up and down the audio chain are using a plethora of digital methods to process the sound, including mixing and shaping it to taste, at every stage, up to and including playback. It would be nice if there was some sort of digital umami that could rescue dead or freakish digital renderings for home playback. I've not heard it yet, myself, nor have I heard anything that unequivocally points to more expensive digital playback equipment fairing consistently better than my own, modestly priced transport and DAC. Not to say this is Great, just not worse than else I've heard. I hope to be paying attention if streaming digital I can use at home ever becomes available, including - of course - a signficant Music library that I have access to at home.


Paul S
05-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 299
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 169
Post ID: 26781
Reply to: 26780
Digital recording/mixing/mastering
 Paul S wrote:
Interesting that problems Harley isolated in this case (pits and lands; turntable) were physical/mechanical, utimately "analog", in that sense. I'm glad someone has stayed after it, but not sure how to put this revelation to work to get better Music in my home. Meanwhile, recordists all up and down the audio chain are using a plethora of digital methods to process the sound, including mixing and shaping it to taste, at every stage, up to and including playback. It would be nice if there was some sort of digital umami that could rescue dead or freakish digital renderings for home playback. I've not heard it yet, myself, nor have I heard anything that unequivocally points to more expensive digital playback equipment fairing consistently better than my own, modestly priced transport and DAC. Not to say this is Great, just not worse than else I've heard. I hope to be paying attention if streaming digital I can use at home ever becomes available, including - of course - a signficant Music library that I have access to at home.


Paul S

Paul These articles are more about market advertise and The only thing in harley article was interesting to me was effect of the shape of digital square wave on sound , i remember CEC tl0 square wave was different to other transports . Believe it or not but i see Many audiophiles in the world think the sound of all transports are equal and computer audio is the best way to go. I do not say expensive server/dac will solve the problem.If better transport/server/dac could improve the sound by x% then good AAD records (file/cd) will improve the sound by 10x% .It means the main problem is the quality of digital (file/CD) records and there is no escape from it.Now most recording studios use powerful softwares and most records are DDD. 


05-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 170
Post ID: 26782
Reply to: 26781
At What Point Does Corruption Occur?
I admit, if Harley was selling something, I was not reading for that, and I missed it. If the question is how to shape digital square waves, we are still left to solve that problem, as any other, with an identifiable and repeatable solution. I am all ready to jump on digital solutions I can replicate, as long as there is Music I want to hear waiting there for that solution. Of course digital files do not all sound the same through a given playback, but what are we supposed to do with that, apart from stick to the solutions that we prefer? Hats off to anyone who can actually, consistently make more satisfying Music through propritary means, whether digital or analog. I will say again, I have no interest in most of the music that is played by reps to demonstrate so-called audio "solutions".


Best regards,
Paul S
Page 9 of 9 (170 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 5 6 7 8 9
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The commercial music servers...  Touch screen remote...  Didital Things  Forum     37  335025  01-10-2008
  »  New  About the DAW playback software...  Best hardware with best software...  Didital Things  Forum     11  102405  03-22-2008
  »  New  Recording/Playback software..  Free stuff...  Didital Things  Forum     14  100794  08-24-2008
  »  New  To Rip or not to Rip...  Ripping with better playback...  Didital Things  Forum     2  33078  03-18-2009
  »  New  The contra-ridicules solution for a good DAW?..  Happy to see this thread...  Didital Things  Forum     1  32024  06-18-2009
  »  New  DAW drives configuration and backup strategies...  Not expensive to recover DATA, avoid Corporate Recovery...  Didital Things  Forum     3  38607  10-05-2009
  »  New  Weiss Engineering DAC202..  Attenuation...  Didital Things  Forum     5  51267  06-21-2010
  »  New  Pacific Microsonics Model Two: What Platform, Software ..  XLR to RCA adaptor. Watch out...  Didital Things  Forum     1  27080  03-17-2011
  »  New  Windows Based Transport: A quiet and capable Source?..  DAE Firmware quality...  Didital Things  Forum     47  287970  11-01-2011
  »  New  Memory Player Box?..  Maybe I will not order the Pure Teflon capacitors after...  Didital Things  Forum     2  46301  11-03-2011
  »  New  Why I hate computer playback...  Higher power cpu...  Didital Things  Forum     17  124997  04-16-2012
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