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04-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1
Post ID: 16091
Reply to: 16091
Hildegard von Bingen on vinyl
fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm a big fan of her music. If anyone is aware of an interesting recording
of her music on vinyl, would appreciate letting me know!
I've just ordered a Sequentia recording from '85 or so.

Thank you!
N-set



Cheers,
Jarek
04-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,397
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 2
Post ID: 16092
Reply to: 16091
Interesting, tell me more.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hildegard von Bingen, I never heard here.  Googling her is looks like she composed some kind of chant music. N-set, you are as a big fan of her music, can you give your recapitulation of why you are so like von Bingen and what you see in it? Can you describe her music?

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 3
Post ID: 16096
Reply to: 16092
The voice of God
fiogf49gjkf0d
.

Cheers,
Jarek
04-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 4
Post ID: 16098
Reply to: 16092
A way
fiogf49gjkf0d
My best way so far to to listen to her has been with this recording:

http://www.amazon.com/Hildegard-von-Bingen-Heavenly-Revelations/dp/B00000141Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303176347&sr=8-1

After 2 days of a complete starvation. Meditarrenean winter. Sunny day.
Reaching an empty beach. Taking the headphones off and submerging in a cold, quiet water


Cheers,
Jarek
04-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008
Post #: 5
Post ID: 16109
Reply to: 16092
Hildegard von Bingen
fiogf49gjkf0d
Andrea von Ramm (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Ramm-Andrea-von.htm) and Studio der frühen Musik, with Thomas Binkley and Sterling Jones recorded on Telefunken SAWT series (blue label) a definitive (...) rendering and reading of Hildegard von Bingen's compositions... it's ancient music, so the aesthetics and performance are (mostly) due to historic sources like ancient papers now in Museums and/or private collections, BUT filtered in performers taste and sensitivity... Alfred Deller, David Munrow, the a.m. Studio der Fruhen Musik, Paniagua family... all gave in the last decades their tasty, superb renditions of this great, seldom heard and performed music... like for Perotinus and Orlando di Lasso, this is great, pure music to listen to, passionately: it's modal, vocal or choral music, with sparingly used rebecs, crumhorns, small percussions, instruments coming - as copies from old miniatures - from centuries and centuries ago.

I have well carved in my memory a concert by SdFM I attended in early '70s in Padua (Italy): von Ramm in long, white robe, a voice... they were pure magic!
 
She - Hildegard von Bingen - was a woman when "being a woman" wasn't easiest task!!!

As a plus, von Bingen's texts are poems and invocations to the Purest Love for God... no "religion" involved, BUT mysticism and she was so so human and full of joy for life... almost, I dare, sexy.

IMO: the vinyl Telefunken's version is THE version to have and to listen to... with a recording to par.

Curious?

"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
04-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 6
Post ID: 16110
Reply to: 16109
Grazie mile Stefano!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Will try hard to locate those TLF's (if you know somebody who is stupid enough to sell I'm interested).


Cheers,
Jarek
04-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008
Post #: 7
Post ID: 16111
Reply to: 16110
;-)
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.gemm.com/item/STUDIO--DER--FRUHEN--MUSIK/MINNESANG--UND--SPRUCHDICHTUNG--1200-d-1320/GML1444528689/

... not "THE" one, but nice to begin with... sealed and for cheap.

To go obsessive (and deeeeper...) http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/composers/hildegard.html

"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
04-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 8
Post ID: 16115
Reply to: 16111
I am obsessive
fiogf49gjkf0d
and you?

PS

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Googling her is looks like she composed some kind of chant music.

This is a bit like saying that Beethoven composed some kind of symphonies.


Cheers,
Jarek
04-20-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,397
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 9
Post ID: 16116
Reply to: 16115
I thought that Beethoven was a St. Bernard dog.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 N-set wrote:
This is a bit like saying that Beethoven composed some kind of symphonies.

Yes, Beethoven composed “some kind of symphonies” for the people who do not care or know symphonic music. I do not have a lot exposure/experience with 12 century music or with all pre renaissance period. Sure I have some good recordings of medieval music but they rather accidents in my library. It is not that I have anything against it. I just happened that I did not listen it too much. I do not deny certain grace in beauty in some medieval music but it is not the music what listen too frequently.  In my observation the medieval music that I did like sounded like more contemporary music.  BTW, I have ordered a couple of your von Bingen’s recordings to see what her “some kind of chant” is all about.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-21-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008
Post #: 10
Post ID: 16124
Reply to: 16115
Roots
fiogf49gjkf0d
Obsession is the purest form of craziness... and I feel me a scholar for the life about being obsessive for this or that.
Middle Age and Ancient Music are - to me - like Robert Johnson's blues and Rolling Stones vs. Romantic, classical music... a mutation, father and son, bottom and panties... enjoying both or ONLY one of the genders isn't right or wrong, per se... but they're linked and originating from human-kind DNA layering.
Sure a MUCH more romantic and historic, time-capsule-like aspect is part of my love and interest for Dufay, Machaut, von Bingen, Perotinus & co. 
If anyone motivated enough is able to historically locate Beethoven's or Satie's or Delius' times, the above composers lived in "different" times... no TV, of course, BUT also no books... life was shorter, and time had a different counting; God was paramount, and the above mentioned geniuses were monks, Dom, priests or nuns... music wasn't "impressionist" but hinting to God and its beauties... also travels and cultural swapping were different - i.e. think about Crusades, arabic oud and western lute or monodic singing from Orthodox', Eastern traditions.
It's naive and sincere, untechnical and incredibly complex, everything is alien and friendly at same time vs. contemporary music... and listening to "this" kind of music is like looking at the dawn of culture, of the world like we know...
An immense pleasure.   

"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
04-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 11
Post ID: 16130
Reply to: 16124
Metamorfozy
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stefano, are you familiar with this project:

http://wsm.serpent.pl/sklep/albumik.php,alb_id,290

This is a very serious and holistic attempt to reconstruct ancient Greek music.


Cheers,
Jarek
04-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008
Post #: 12
Post ID: 16131
Reply to: 16130
Reminds me...
fiogf49gjkf0d
... a lot of Paniagua's "Musique de la Grece Antique" on Harmonia Mundi HM 1015, a sonic and musical rollercoaster you're sure aware of, as it became an audiophile must listen... it was all music extrapolated from papyrus (yes...) fragments, mostly from German museums vaults...
 
Also Kees Otten and his Syntagma Musicum group is well worth, with Munrow, Clemencic, and the a.m. Paniagua and Atrium Musicae de Madrid, a deeep search and Googling and Wiki-ing... 

Thanks for hinting the disk you found...  

"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
04-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008
Post #: 13
Post ID: 16132
Reply to: 16110
Someone should grab this...
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://cgi.ebay.it/Syntagma-Musicum-CODEX-REINA-Medieval-TELEFUNKEN-STEREO-/260756360419?pt=FR_VC_Vinyle&hash=item3cb64a4ce3

An absolute masterpiece... musically and sonically...

"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
04-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,397
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 14
Post ID: 16138
Reply to: 16116
I guess I do not get it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I have ordered a couple of your von Bingen’s recordings to see what her “some kind of chant” is all about.

Got the Hildegard von Bingen’s recordings today. Interesting. Pleasant. Hugely talented. Very tasteful. Still it is not my cap of tea. Surely my opinion shall be irrelevant to anybody who like this music but my sentiment was that I was listening a great lyrical interlude for some kind of opera and the next composition will be something different. Unfortunately there was nothing different at the whole CD. All “songs” are in way very similar. The expressive methods are very narrow and each psalm has near identical structure. I felt that I hear one and was pretty much not able to hear any differences between the next songs on CD. In a way it reminds me music of Antonio Salieri – all compositions are remarkably alike. That is what I frequently distracted in early music. It has own charm but that charm is not what I personally am looking in music.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 15
Post ID: 16140
Reply to: 16131
Gardzienice
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:
.... it was all music extrapolated from papyrus (yes...) fragments, mostly from German museums vaults...


When you read how the Gardzienice project approached the reconstruction of the music, at least in a, so to say, technical layer 
it's light years ahead of a mere "extrapolating from papyrus": they've tried to reconstruct from all possible angles they could reach,
studying e.g. mosaics with preforming musicians to learn what poses and possible dynamics of the bodies they used.
Then learning how to play that way, not to mention their own reconstructions of the instruments, studies of the poetry
and the language itself, etc etc.
Still, the final effect my Greek friend called "bavarian" and probably he is right: althought being very interesting and
(to my very-very limited knowledge) quite unique in it's holistic approach, it's sort of heavy and emotionally hysteric.
One should keep in mind though that this music has been re-created for a purpose of a dramatical performance.


PS: Stefano, madonna mia, I am not any kind of an audio(pedo)phile and saying that something is a must for them means
run from it for me



Cheers,
Jarek
04-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 642
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 16
Post ID: 16141
Reply to: 16138
Black Square
fiogf49gjkf0d
The God was still more or less One in the 12th century, so He did not need more expressive methods then just one.

I fully agree with a view that the art should be preceived in the context of it's creation.
One can't compare the complexity of 12th century music with the 20th century molochs,
superceed in it's unncessary, in my view, complexity only by the newest
Intel 87325645325 core chip. Try to look at Malewicz without knowing anything about suprematism.
But of course, the finall "I like it" or "I do not" is very much irrational.




Cheers,
Jarek
04-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,397
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 17
Post ID: 16142
Reply to: 16141
Good direction to explore.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 N-set wrote:
The God was still more or less One in the 12th century, so He did not need more expressive methods then just one.

I do not know if I disagree with it or I rather consider it as an irrelevant comment. Yes, God does not need more expressive methods then just one why I feel it is irrelevant?

Well, in 12th century God was the same as now but we were much different, at least in our relation to God. I need to note that I personally do not subscribe believe in God. I do commemorate God but my version of God is closer to Thomas Mann’s version of God, or God as a combination of invented, adopted and the existing of external awareness which agrees complies with human needs to have God. So, in accordance with my version of God I feel that we today have much more complex and much multi-polar self-realization of our relation with God then what we had in 12th century. I feel in 12th century God, particularly for the persons who observe it attentively, was a force of final destination and in a way it served degenerative function.  God was simplistic, his exposure or perception was overly dominating, and people did not has ability to compete neither with God’s actions, nor with God’s jealousy, nor with own desire to subordinate themselves to God. Nowadays, our version of God is much more complex and it is tested by much generation of thinkers. Our mind’s understating of God include today that newest Intel 87325645325 core chip and I personally feel that I am in 12 century would be very different then I am in 21 century.

So, the musical expressionism of 12th century does not even scratch a surface of a black box where my God lived. Yes, in context how people at that time understand, God music, work, harmonies and them what they did was wonderful but it is near where I have interests or find stimulatinf for my own listening experiences.

Rgs, the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008
Post #: 18
Post ID: 16149
Reply to: 16140
Being a music lover (a musicophile) and not being afraid (...) of recording quality...
fiogf49gjkf0d
... ordered  Gardzienice's disk, N-set, thanks for hinting... I shamelessly will enjoy if, with an up to par music, I'll also find a NICE recording... I'm too much fond of music to consider myself or anyone else a pedo/audiophile who bought a disc after reading about sonic AND musical merits, nonetheless, I cannot forget ALL the load of fantastic music and recordings I discovered in the decades ONLY thanking this or that audio magazine reviews... same with Arthur Salvatore's, Roman Bessnow's et al. I mean: if you "run from it" only because I quoted an hyped (...) hinting to a "must listen/own" item I possibly used wrong lingo, but, holy shit, refusing nice music accompanied by a nice recording and defining s.o. an audio(pedo)phile is like defining a grandad with his beloved young nephew at the park a pedophile... or looking and aestetically appreciating  a beautiful lady in summer dressing in the street and being accused of being a porn-minded individual.Music-sake... Paniagua family -  father and sons - were and are musicians and luthiers and on Harmonia Mundi, BIS and M/A recordings usually uses historically compliant instrument copies they built after extensive researches and studies... and, like you underlined, the "papyrus" source which someway disturbed you;-) isn't so afar from the "mosaic" which disturbs me;-)) - VERY early music playing and re-surrecting is based on musicians personality, tastes and culture, as no dogma exists, BUT the above; a vase, a mosaic, an old miniature or... papyrus made more than conservatories of music, for "our" music, you'll agree!...  at the end, as I'll sure give a fond and interested listen to your suggested disk - just curious -  let me ask: did you own/listened to the HM's disc I quoted, by any chance?  

"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
04-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,397
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 19
Post ID: 16151
Reply to: 16149
I am not so lucky.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 twogoodears wrote:
I cannot forget ALL the load of fantastic music and recordings I discovered in the decades ONLY thanking this or that audio magazine reviews...

I am not so lucky and the recordings recommendations from audio people that I VERY seldom decided to try almost always end up in garbage can. The most recent case to point: a few weeks back I read about “orgasm-like quality”, “true masterpiece” and “impressive... a truly reference disk, absolutely unboring ... a must listening test for any audio system”.

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2011/03/eau-de-cologne-another-delayed-yet.html

I had no idea what king music it was but I got an interests by the fact that it was Klaus and Reinhard recommended.  So, I got the disk. I can’t not describe how surprised I was when I heard it. If Klaus and Reinhard consider that this crap worth not only listen but even to bring in home then it pretty much disqualifies what they do/think in audio. I am not kidding. 

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008
Post #: 20
Post ID: 16156
Reply to: 16151
Tastes differences aren't "war"...
fiogf49gjkf0d
... REALLY find nothing wrong, violent or offending about what you say, Roman... I - myself - find many, I mean MANY Mercuries from Golden Era to be crap;-), both musically and sonically, and, as listening to the whole Haydn's quartets, a musical torture quite similar to yr. von Bingen's recent experience.
"La Bamba" is amusing and entertaining... not enriching, but...

I'll call this "personal taste" and, applying this, "freedom"...  

"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
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