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02-23-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 61
Post ID: 6759
Reply to: 6753
Ideology and developer´s pride
 Romy the Cat wrote:

1)    Whatever it is, in the WLM speakers the PAC driver is not tweeter but a MF driver. My definition of tweeter is that it is a driver that covers frequency range AFTER a MF channel. There is no dedicated MF channel in WLM speakers and therefore the HF transducer that they user could not be caped as a tweeter. As least a tweeter that is understood in context of this thread. I have expressed many times before that “bad people” love to drool about the quality of tweeter but they do not look tweeter in context of a devise that continue duty of MF driver. I disregard a tweeter itself and my primary attention ONLY how a tweeter compliment the well-defined specifics of MF driver. I my mind, if there is no MF driver, or a crappy MF driver used, then there is no way to judge tweeter

Rgs, Romy the caT


I am not ideologic, and if a driver that can be used from 1kHz up is only state of the art from 5kHz up I won´t hesitate to cross it there. Maybe it has something to do with developer´s pride to extend the frequency range as far as possible. I never heard a RAAL, but I believe Alex is also not free of that when he claims the natural x-over frequency for a large ribbon is 1.5kHz.
02-23-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 6760
Reply to: 6759
I never saw a need for wide bandwidth driver.

 el`Ol wrote:
I am not ideologic, and if a driver that can be used from 1kHz up is only state of the art from 5kHz up I won´t hesitate to cross it there.

There is a difference between “can be used from 1kHz” and “a driver sound at 1kHz  as good or better than other diver”. It is not about where to cross but how good it sounds before you cross it. I my book the lower ribbon goes the more compromised it sounds.

 el`Ol wrote:
Maybe it has something to do with developer´s pride to extend the frequency range as far as possible. I never heard a RAAL, but I believe Alex is also not free of that when he claims the natural x-over frequency for a large ribbon is 1.5kHz.

Alex and I have major disagreement about it. I believe that quality of sound from ribbons is back proportional to frequency. Alex feels that it is a bogus believes and he considers that if ribbon is properly implemented for a given operation mode then it might be an effectible wide bandwidth driver. Certainly he has more foundation to support his believe but I’m still willing to maintain my view. Even if Alex is capable to make a decently sounding MF ribbon then… why do not use 2 ribbons: one is optimized for MF and another is optimized as a tweeter – to serve HF only. It is like you need two different channels to best produce 30Hz and 300Hz you need two different channels (transducers) to best produce 1kHz and 12kHz. Perhaps it is my ignorance but I never heard any seriously-sounding MF-HF transducer - nor I ever have seen a need for it…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 63
Post ID: 10823
Reply to: 3766
A “new” tweeter for Macondo, Round 395.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ending up re-amping my MF channel, I found myself at unexpected situation that I am not completely compostable with Macondo HF. It is not that the HF are bad but they were made to serve the interest of older, slightly softer operating single-stage MF channel but with some extra “zap” of  the deep-idling MF channel  my current teeter underperforms in my view. I would like to get more “zap” this time from tweeter.

The Water Drop tweeter in the way how I use is doe not play aggressive and does not go rough. Also, it is very dynamic and it show itself off ONLY when it being g called upon, otherwise it sits in shadow. It does not produce the stupid audiophile “air” – it produces HF if they are needed. Adding the HF of amplitude at HF, even for 1 db make it worse but I would like not to have more HF but to have no more "aggressive" HF, aggressive  but clean. In a way I would like to use not the 175:1 transformer that I use currently (from plate to ribbon) but let say a virtual 400:1. Sure this transformer would not work and the 6E5P have no gain to driver such a ratio.

I kind of think what options are on a table and what might be done. The leading option is to put back a regular ribbon transformer that RAAL made with the original Water Drop and to drive the tweeter with some kind SS devise. Alternately it would be nice to find some kind of SS amp that will be able to drive my Water Drop direct coupled. The Water Drop has 0.2R impedance at 16R, if I am not mistaken. Are any SS buffers that can drive the thing?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 64
Post ID: 10824
Reply to: 10823
From Each According to His Abilities
fiogf49gjkf0d

The ribbons surely do lack "qualities", but we are talking about serious "HF" in this case, and who says real HF actually wants "qualities"?  I really doubt that any "tweeter" that can do "stuff" can also do what the ribbon does best - in a class of its own, for that matter.

Yes, the ribbons are lacking in bite, traction, texture and color, so maybe you want that stuff from, say, 4 - 5k or so on up to your RAAL X-over at 10 - 12k, and maybe paralleled for a ways up there?

The best way I know of to supplement a "real" HF tweeter is with a nice silk dome; but I think "they" stopped making the good silk domes quite a while ago, and in any case you will probably never find one anywhere near your insane efficiency ratings.

I will eventually try the cheap Selenium phenolic tweeters, which "look like they might sound OK", and they can be had up to around 104 dB, I think, or maybe more.

But I still see the idea here as being supplemental rather than replacing the "Real HF" ribbons.  In other words, maybe the "problem" with the "HF" is not the Water Drops but it is actually lower down the frequency range, or it might be effectively dealt with in this way?

Best regards,
Paul S

06-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 498
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 65
Post ID: 10825
Reply to: 10824
Injection #2
fiogf49gjkf0d
Agreed, it is what I was thinking. This situation sounds very much like the question to which the Injection Channel was an answer, and it might be made so for the HF in this case as well. Why re-invent the wheel?Adrian
06-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
nl
Posts 14
Joined on 06-15-2008

Post #: 66
Post ID: 10828
Reply to: 10824
Possibly lower in the treble
fiogf49gjkf0d
Using an S2 above 8Khz or so is well into its breakup range. I would consider either a 1" exit/2" diaphragm driver or possibly a bullet tweeter that is comfortable down to 8K or so.
06-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 67
Post ID: 10829
Reply to: 10828
Debugging Macondo’s HF like debugging a car.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Actually the S2 above 8Khz, or what ‘nl’ calls the “breakup range”, is something that I absolutely certainly would like do NOT loose. I very much like what S2 at it’s 10-12Hz. It might be a bit brutal in some cases; I reported it at the beginning of my years with S2.  Now I have no problems and I know how to play S2 to take advantage of all lucrativeness of it’s upper region. There is a few other reasons why I I would like do not truncate HF from S2 but do exactly opposite: to feed it more.

The channel above the S2 is a different matter. The idea to have another small diaphragm driver is fine. I do have a number of tweeters including my beloved TN51. What I would like to find out why the Water Drop does not do it for me anymore. The Water Drop is unique in Macondo’s’ context as it has wide horizontal dispersion (Macondo is installed across a wide wall) and it has narrow vertical dispersion (as it shot in the opening between MF and Fundamentals horns).

The car people say that if an engine does not start then there are only two reasons: no sparks or no gasoline flow. I think the very same with my tweeter. If it does not do what I want then it is ether a problem with the tweeter or with the amp that drives it. Since the tweeter was not change I need to review the amp that drivers Water Drop. I do have theoretical criticism for this amp, primary by the fact that it does not follow my rule of “open top” (similar to the idea of “open bottom” in LF sections). The design of the HF amp itself contains a well-defined HF limit, what I would like to see ONLY high pass filter with  no low-pass at least for 10x. I need to experiment with this more to see what is doing on.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 68
Post ID: 10830
Reply to: 10829
Thinking further about the ‘compression’ of my tweeter.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I kind if cycle my attention on the notion of compression and it is not accidental. When a few years ago I used the hugely dymick NT51 tweeter in my car I experienced problem to set the right volume and I run the volume control 10  times more frequently then I would usually do. When the NT51 played low it was too loud and in soft passages it was way beyond the rood noise.

Now with Wetter Drop I have in a way the same effect. What I add a DB to my reference level then I feel that it too brought but generally I feel that there is a room for more tweeter output. I described it as luck of “compression” but not the compression in normal sense but rather tweeter non-compression – or inappropriately set relation between tweeter and MF. What I think I would need to do is not to add tweeter HF output but rather to add it’s MF output that would add the relevant amount of MF relative to HF and therefore make my HF more “compressed” in relation to the rest sound.

RAAL’s Alex advised the same but for different reasons. He feels that my tweeter shall provide more leading edge to the MF driver's impulse response. I just a bit concern that a bit overlay hygienic tone of the ribbon driver might override the tonal quality of the S2’s upon knee. Well, I will try to do go too low; let sat to 10K from 13K, and will see how it goes.

WaterDrop_compression.JPG

If it were not enough to add harshness then I will convert the 6E5P stage that drives the Water Drop to cathode bias and will “inject” the “harshness” by use of the cathode capacitor.

The caT




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 69
Post ID: 10836
Reply to: 10830
So far it is a miss…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hm, interesting, I did drop the crossover frequency but I do not like the result. I was driven in different configurations and experimented from the current 13kHz to 7.5kHz. As soon I drop below ~ 11.8kHz then the overly clean and would say sterile influence of the Water Drop become to dominant and ruin the very fine texture of the Vitovox S2’s upper range. Also, during my standard “sit-down test” the WD and S2 sounded not like slightly different drivers and the WD was bit too soft - I did not have it before. I need to make the WD slightly harder and slightly more hostile. Then I will think how to integrate it with my updated S2. So fae, it is not there…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 70
Post ID: 10837
Reply to: 10836
The Impossible Dream
fiogf49gjkf0d

What kind of futzing would it take to work an attenuated T350 or something like that back in there, just to check it against massed strings and the other impossible-to-achieve standards that tell everything about the "mid HF" qualities?

All that x/o wants is a cap, right?  Well, there's the "cap" you were talking about...  just put it on the "voice tweeter" rather than at a cathode...

Can you work something like this with your present channels?

I woulld think that if you mess with your amps to get "sound" from the ribbons, then that "sound" will turn into noise after a while.

Best to leave the correct ribbons to make umami with the drivers that should do sounds, and to help with the space.


Best regards,
Paul S

06-19-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 71
Post ID: 10857
Reply to: 10836
After all it is much better!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Hm, interesting, I did drop the crossover frequency but I do not like the result. I was driven in different configurations and experimented from the current 13kHz to 7.5kHz. As soon I drop below ~ 11.8kHz then the overly clean and would say sterile influence of the Water Drop become to dominant and ruin the very fine texture of the Vitovox S2’s upper range. Also, during my standard “sit-down test” the WD and S2 sounded not like slightly different drivers and the WD was bit too soft - I did not have it before. I need to make the WD slightly harder and slightly more hostile. Then I will think how to integrate it with my updated S2. So fae, it is not there…

In fact it is not just better but it is truly perfect.

I made a number of experiments over the last two day but it was no good. Dropping the crossover made the Water Drop to take over Vitavox and it was not what I liked. I began to think that I need to “tweak” the amp that drives the Water Drop, making it somehow “harder”. I did not like this idea – the single stage the drives the Water Drop in theory shall be the best imaginable amp – a single stage with only single resistor in path. Still, something needed to be done.

Then I printed my comments about my dissatisfaction of the Water Drop and read them a few times, paying attention to the language. I was looking for aggressiveness and hardness from my tweeter but I did not want to spoil what I got from my MF.  Then it suddenly occurred to me: I needed a shaper filter on the tweeter.

So, I went for 3rd order and it was immediately clear that it was very right direction to go. The standard “sit down” test made Water Drop and S to sound absolutely undistinguishable – very very impressive! The Water Drop got it’s “hardness” and did not wrecked the S2. The 18dB roll off was it, now the key was to find the right new crossover point. Obviously I needed to drive the cut off lower. I was at 13kHz and I dropped to 11 kHz and then to 10kHz. At 10kHz it is incredibly good with S2 and not I ma debating against 10kHz and 9kHz. The 10kHz better talks with S2 but if I use 9kHz then the Water Drop lower the acoustic vertical center, allowing the Macondo Injection to run 2dB harder. Both have own positive aspects and I do not know what I would lend yet.

However, regardless if I select the 10kHz or 9kHz the third order with lower crossover is it and it will be the solution to integrate the Water Drop with more idling MF Vitavox driver.

The Cat

PS: Just for my own future reference:

10kHz: 530pF- 230mH-1591pF
9kHz: 589pF- 265mH-1768pF


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 10862
Reply to: 10857
I got, I got, I got it!!!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d

I got it!

I realty have got it this time and it is exactly what I was craving for and shooting for. I converted both channels for 18db/octave on tweeter and recalibrated the whole Macondo, in a slightly different manner this time. After I finished the recalibration this afternoon I got the sound that I literally heard in my dreams – the upper MF are think and saturated but at the same time they are different with each touch of sting, with each blow of winds or with each soprano note. That was so interesting and play and SO INTERESTING to fine-tune the injection amount, the  MF attenuation, the HF attention, the type of the MF tube  and the current of HF tube that was completely caught up into this and had so much enjoyment the I even canceled my female engagement tonight. The result I got incitingly wonderful and I truly, truly pound of it.

The RAAL’s Alex asked me to let him know where I lend with my Water Drop application. This morning I spoke with him and listening my feedback about the positive result I got with 3rd order he advised to go 4th order. I see a lot of rational in following his advise but honestly it is so good that I would like do not spoil it for now.

The configuration I end up is following: the MF runs at minus 1.75dB and using type 45 tube. Other tubes do well as well but among the tubes that I own only 45 runs “straight”. The tweeter runs at 25mA and at 4dB down with 9kHz on left and 10kHz on right. (I know it is stupid but I did not decide yet where to lend in term of crossover point). The Injection runs at incredibly high level – minus 10.5dB. I never was able to have such a high level of injection but the transient from semi-idle Vitavox S2 and Water Drop looks like hold the vertical offset of Sound to the Injection channel. The result is very very sexy – it is fast and super clean but it is tonally rich to a psychotic madness. Where is my Bruckner with those colors?

Now, the only think that I feel might be left is to push the MF driver a bit higher, not more transient and not more idle via a transformer but high higher. I am planning to get read the wirewound attenuator from the transformer’s secondary. The wirewound LPAD has two coils in path, each of them is a series inductance that I do not need as it acts as low path filter.  I have spoke with right people to build a .5dB stepped attenuator with non-inductive resistors…

Ok, this game is over with VERY encouraging results. I am off to my Bruckner and then will be inflating my date tonight…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-11-2010

Post #: 73
Post ID: 15630
Reply to: 3770
Raal's Lazy Ribbon: a worthy cousin of Water Drop?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hello everyone:

I exchanged a couple of emails with Romy, and since the topic may be of interest to everyone, I am posting the emails here. Just in case anyone wonders, of course I checked with Romy to see if he was alright with his reply to my email being posted here.

My email to Romy earlier today:

"Hi Romy:
 
I fear I may again have to trouble you for advice. I have been talking to Aleksandar of Raal about the Lazy Ribbon, and have dicussed its specs on paper with a friend who is more knowledgeable than me and is rather impressed.
 
Nonetheless, I have a couple of concerns. One is whether the sloping off at 20KHz and bump thereafter are a cause for concern. Alex suggests, and I would agree with him at least theoretically, that it should not be.
 
Secondly, what are the ideal specifications, in terms of the transformers, to be aimed for in a system which to all intent and purposes, in terms of topology is indistinguishable from Macondo, in this frequency range at any rate? To recap, as I do not expect you to remember, I have exactly the same complement of S2 drivers, with a choice of aluminium or plastic diaphragms, as you have and I am hoping to pretty much emulate what you have done, if you do not mind. It would be used with exactly same channel of Melquiades as you are using presently (according to the schematics). I would be grateful if you could be precise if there are any departures from specific options being suggested by Alex.
 
Maybe I shoud add a third matter that I have been thinking about. I do like the shape of the Water Drop for very functional reasons (minimisation of reflections), but the WD itself has proven such a pain for Alex that he does not even want to consider it as an option. But is there any benefit to having the Lazy Ribbon fitted in a Water Drop shape enclosure? Either I can ask Alex whether he has Water Drop enclosures which render this possible or I could have it built out of wood and drop the Lazy Ribbon in such an enclosure. What do you you think?
 
I am reluctant to post these questions on the forum at the moment as I feel that it might look like I am questioning Alex's judgement. That is not at all the case but I would love to have your opinion to make sure I do not miss opportunities which are at this early stage still open to me. Of course do not hesitate to comment on any other matters (surely many) that may be eluding me that would improve on my solution for the high frequency range and it goes without saying, assuming you have a moment to consider my concerns.
 
Regards
Rakesh"

Romy's response:

"I do not see this email as something that would be prohibitive for open forum. You  are do not questioning Alex's judgment but you are looking for a second opinion. I think in this correspondence here is a lot that might be useful for public. Since Alex is the manufacture and his opinion is conditioned I feel it is perfectly reasonable to look what other data might be at the table.  In fact I think it would be good idea to inform the public that this driver is available as there is no data at RAAL web site.
 
The bumps or anything else at 20KHz are absolutely irrelevant. In fact any linearity or lack of it above 12K-13K is more or less irrelevant.
 
The transformer is a different subject.  What kind transformer you have in mind? The Milq’s transformer directly coupled to the ribbon or ribbon en own transformer? If you go for directly coupled to the ribbon then it automatically implies multiamping. If you have a full Milq dedicated juts for the ribbon then I think it might be a bit too much.
 
Regarding the same.  The Water Drop shape is great and this was what I was looking for went I approached Alex. However, I was in a different situation. At that time Alex was  a small manufacture with little exposure or publicity and I proposed to him to do something that he never did but something the he always wanted and never had customers who would pay for it. So, run my enthusiasm wave knowing that I get a great deal just  for the abuse of the Alex’s own passion. As a result I had my Water Drop for extremely low price, high quality and I remember that I did tell to Alex that in 5 years what he will be riding in Mercedes and had overvaluing amount of order it would be much more difficult to get that “push envelop” products out of him.
 
So, is Water Drop shape necessary? I do not know. I know that baffles are bad for HF devises and I would like my tweeter to stand alone with no baffles. If I buy this Lazy Ribbon then I would ask Alex to have the front plate no wider than  the body or the ribbon and to make the mounting provision under the bottom. Alex is very resourceful man and very much willing to use his inventiveness to benefit custom solutions. I feel that in out systems his tweeter need to be treated like a piece of furniture – you need to like how it looks and fells  in context of your own setup and your own speaker frame. I think Alex has no a lot of customers who use his drivers in standalone configuration – so you need to navigate his and to get from him what you want
 
The Cat"

PS: Lazy Ribbon data: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/RAAL+The+Lazy+Ribbon+specs.pdf



 

02-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-11-2010

Post #: 74
Post ID: 15633
Reply to: 15630
"Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink"
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy:

Again thanks for the response. With regard to the most important question, my choice would be to use the standard AM Amorphous C-Core transformers in the short term but the Direct Tube Drive in the long term. As I mentioned elsewhere, I was in the process of looking for a place in Alsace in France, close to the border with Germany and Switzerland because of work, which I have now done. By some completely remarkable and undeserved stroke of good fortune, this townhouse happens to have a fairly large room that can eventually accomodate the sheer size of a full multi-channel 'Macondoesque' set-up. I would like to build Melquiades Full range in the near future but with the option of making it into a fully fledged Super DSET Melquiades. Anyway, that's the objective.


 romy wrote:

So, is Water Drop shape necessary? I do not know. I know that baffles are bad for HF devises and I would like my tweeter to stand alone with no baffles. If I buy this Lazy Ribbon then I would ask Alex to have the front plate no wider than  the body or the ribbon and to make the mounting provision under the bottom. Alex is very resourceful man and very much willing to use his inventiveness to benefit custom solutions.
 



Indeed, there is of course the practical difficulty that the front plate looks like a structural part of the frame supporting the ribbon. However, the reason for the less than ideal measured performance (although of no import) of the driver above 20KHZ, according to Alex has to do with the distance of the magnet from ribbon causing a certain amount of reflection. However the question is worth asking and I will ask Alex what he thinks of the possibility of reducing the front plate size to as small as possible.  

 romy wrote:

I feel that in out systems his tweeter need to be treated like a piece of furniture – you need to like how it looks and fells  in context of your own setup and your own speaker frame. I think Alex has no a lot of customers who use his drivers in standalone configuration – so you need to navigate his and to get from him what you want
 



There is another solution howver, which on paper and aesthetically is extremely appealing to me. I would love for the horns of my Macondo system to be not black but with a more elegant finish in keeping with the local magnificent landscape of a typical Alsactian town surrounded by vineyards, nestling in the foothills of mountains on which are perched the ruins of old castles, with the 'route des vins' and 'route des vins' unfolding just outside my front door. I doubt I will pull that off but if I do, the aesthetics of the Lazy Ribbon will stand out like a sore thumb. So I am thinking to myself why not have a Water Drop enclosure made out of wood or plywood that will be finished like the rest of the horns system.

With regard to the frame, there are actually only two solutions which can be conceivably of interest. One can use the 'H' style frame, with the significant annoyance that I had rather the frame was out of view altogether (I have long ago given up on the idea of making an 'H' frame pleasing to the eye. This leaves the monopole solution, which is or course what you are using. I was hoping my system would manage to look very different to yours, Romy, but the cumulative effect of the optimal solutions for the different channels just seem to always conspire to put me in a corner where I find it difficult to differentiate this system. In fact, the more I reflect on it , the more I see that I will end up with exactly the same combinations as yourself down to paint colour.

So watch this space. I will post more here once I have decided on the options for the Lazy Ribbon. Or if I have any 'Eureka!' moment.

Regards
Rakesh

02-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 75
Post ID: 15635
Reply to: 15633
Lazy ribbon user
fiogf49gjkf0d
I tend to think that we are not copying Romy, but more that he has generated a school of thought on audio and yes horns speakers also.

I too have a system following some of the Macondo Axioms, but have used all diferent drivers.

As with other drivers, I tried several tweeters for my horn setup, some of them : Beyma CP21 (very good could get scratchy) : Stage Accompany (also very good and smooth) : Fostex TA500 (very very good but once you get the sound of ribbons I could not live with these) and right now the Lazy Ribbons from RAAL.

I fearfully contacted RAAL for the Water Drop tweeter expecting a high price and was reccomended the Lazy ribbon by Aleksandar.
 
As soon as I installed them I Forgot they existed! 

They blended in perfectly, not calling attention to them in a sense that the tweeters would make themselves present, some times high pitched voices would "go to the tweeter" and sound completely highish and not natural, or the violins will loose body and weight and come out thin like from the tweeter only or in some passages sound scratchy.  Not the RAAL, they just extend the frequency of your system wonderfully.

I am using the standard version, no Amorohous core and not the direct drive.  I have them hooked up at 111 db with an impedance of 3.5 ohms.  I do make a LOT of tests and I have not suffered because of the transformers or the impedance.  I bought these thinking on upgrading later to the direct drive version (I do multiamplify sometimes) but the normal ones sound so good I have not even turned around to look at them anymore!  There would be a lot of upgrades coming before I think about changing or upgrading my RAAL tweeters.

I have tried to measure them but either my RTA cannot get as high or they measure awful, but what do I care when they sound so good!

About the looks, well I listen to music with my eyes closed, so I dont really care.
02-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-11-2010

Post #: 76
Post ID: 15641
Reply to: 15635
Should we emulate what we admire?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
I tend to think that we are not copying Romy, but more that he has generated a school of thought on audio and yes horns speakers also.

I too have a system following some of the Macondo Axioms, but have used all diferent drivers.

As with other drivers, I tried several tweeters for my horn setup, some of them : Beyma CP21 (very good could get scratchy) : Stage Accompany (also very good and smooth) : Fostex TA500 (very very good but once you get the sound of ribbons I could not live with these) and right now the Lazy Ribbons from RAAL.

I fearfully contacted RAAL for the Water Drop tweeter expecting a high price and was reccomended the Lazy ribbon by Aleksandar.
 
As soon as I installed them I Forgot they existed! 

They blended in perfectly, not calling attention to them in a sense that the tweeters would make themselves present, some times high pitched voices would "go to the tweeter" and sound completely highish and not natural, or the violins will loose body and weight and come out thin like from the tweeter only or in some passages sound scratchy.  Not the RAAL, they just extend the frequency of your system wonderfully.

I am using the standard version, no Amorohous core and not the direct drive.  I have them hooked up at 111 db with an impedance of 3.5 ohms.  I do make a LOT of tests and I have not suffered because of the transformers or the impedance.  I bought these thinking on upgrading later to the direct drive version (I do multiamplify sometimes) but the normal ones sound so good I have not even turned around to look at them anymore!  There would be a lot of upgrades coming before I think about changing or upgrading my RAAL tweeters.

I have tried to measure them but either my RTA cannot get as high or they measure awful, but what do I care when they sound so good!

About the looks, well I listen to music with my eyes closed, so I dont really care.



Hi Jorge:

I am very grateful that you took the time to comment on your use of the Raal Lazy Ribbon. It is the first time, as far as I am aware, that anyone has commented on those and it is great that you were able to compare them with other solutions that you have used in the past.

You sound perfectly satisfied with these as they are. Nonetheless, I would think that amorphous core might, at these frequencies, on paper at least, have an advantage over the standard ferrite ones, although as Alex told me, they are 'very good'. It would be great to compare but that will not prove practicable in most cases unfortunately. Well, never mind, I will take the designer's word for truth.

I am listening to Cecilia Barloli wonderful recording 'Live in Italy' using only one channel of a Beveridge electrostatic speaker ( recent purchase, but I am listening to a single channel presently for reasons I can't bear to go into) and for all the obvious weaknesses in the bass and upper bass (because of speaker placement in a sharp corner I am hoping), the midrange and the highs are simply so beautifully natural, well-integrated that I forget about my woes and just bask in the glory of Cecilia Bartoli's voice, the palpability and naturalness of the violin and piano. 

I am fully in agreement with what you say about not seeking to 'copy' but if anything, one should do no more than taking inspiration from the 'Macondo axioms,' although I think the phrase is a misnomer. If i used the word 'copy' above, I am doing myself a great disservice and really should have said 'emulate,' in that I see such a strong sense of purpose, coherence and unifying whole in Romy's playback that I can nearly hear it without even being there, if you see (hear) what I mean. I have of course travelled my own journey in this hobby, and have strongly held beliefs, many of which are in complete disagreement with Romy's views (and when provoked enough I do say so on occasions). I will say one thing though, the philosophy that Romy adopts is so coherent that it has a feeling of inevitability and inexorability about it, if you go down his multi-channel route.

As for your not caring about looks when one listens to music, I agree and disagree. I agree for the very banal reason that the experience transcends anything as ephemeral as external appearance. Nonetheless, in life when we can, we try to capture not only the performance or function of a thing, but also a representation of it that captures or suggests its essence if at all possible.

Regards
Rakesh

02-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 77
Post ID: 15643
Reply to: 15635
I would like to see a better name for this product.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
About the looks, well I listen to music with my eyes closed, so I dont really care.

Well, it is not how I see it. The topology of acoustic systems like Macondo implies the stand-alone tweeters. So, why do not make it attractive, or at least do not attracting attention but the fact that it is different? You see in Macondo MF island all channels are spherical, so I think it would be visually benefited if HF channels will not have hard rectangular shape. I leave the sonic reasons aside and approach tweeter just like a piece of furniture. If we already pay money for a driver and if we do not buy it in Radian Shake but talk directly to driver maker then why do not let exactly what you want intern to what manufacture fell comfortable to do. How many times are you are planning to change tweeter? If not frequently then why do not fantasy the tweeter you wish? I know that it would be hard to make but it is not your problem. You just write a check and the maker would suffer all do the difficult part. When I did the Water Drop I did paid more and waited longer just because the odd shape but on a larger scale what is the difference? Do a few more bucks worth for the next 25 years looking at my own speaker and close my eyes? Well, in my room Macondo is a part of room decor and I in fact care how it looks.

The Lazy Ribbon shape has advantage that it mooch be mounted in the frame the hold MF channel, however.  Also the name Lazy Ribbon I do not find was the good one.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 27
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 78
Post ID: 15651
Reply to: 15643
Your comment takes me by surprise
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am glad to hear you do care what your speaker system looks like, or should I say, will admit you care.

MACONDO is about the best looking speaker system I have ever seen.  It is the embodiment of
van der Rohe's dictum of form following function.  It looks exactly as it needs to look and that is
beautiful to my way of thinking.

Execution is all important.  Macondo sets a goal for what can be done by an individual. 

Of couse, it helps if the individual has talent and sufficient funds to make what he has thought real.

Of course, I have not heard the speaker properly and only hope that one day I will be able.

Romy's playful gruffness would have made me assume that he would say he does not care what the speaker
looks like.  Are we experiencing a softening of the CAT?  New girlfriend? 

I am sure he will call me a moron and I will smile at the compliment.

Bye,
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