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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  641698  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  27132  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  9913  11-09-2021
11-10-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 281
Post ID: 26984
Reply to: 26982
The conundrum
 Edgar= wrote:


N-Set, I invite you to make your own recording of the phase of your Dunnoy. I used my phone camera to do it and a free online sweep generator. I had Tannoy, Scanspeak and laptop screen all in shot when I filmed and shot from as side on as possible. I didn't observe another phase flip like you mention below 20hz. Definitely out of phase from 1hz to 20hz.

Edgar, thanks for the tip, hope my antique phone has a slow motion mode. I'm only learning the PR operation. The two phase jumps can be seen on simulations here :

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DIYLoudspeakerProjecPad/posts/646526432369864/


 Edgar= wrote:
If you do film your Dunnoy you will get insight into the conundrum of integrating more bass. I'll give you an example. For the sake of this argument let's pick a design frequency of say 40hz to crossover. When I watched my footage I observed the phase drift start around 55hz. Im calling from 55hz and up, in-phase and from 55hz down out-of-phase. It's not technically in phase yes, also it not just suddenly out of phase either, and for that matter it doesn't start at 55hz but there is an observable shift around there, both visually and acoustically enough for me to choose that frequency for this argument.So at 40 hz what driver do you want to interface with? That is which driver do you want to time align with? If we choose the tannoy then we will be out of phase with the PR. If we choose the PR we will be out of phase with the Tannoy. As we go lower and the difference of phase between active and passive radiators increases, the issue gets worse. Which ever way you cut it, if you add another driver to your room delivering sub 55hz energy, it will be out of phase with Dunnoy.


I get the conundrum. Thinking out loud, I have two ideas (feel free to criticize):

1. Align the bass channel with the active driver. PR is working out of phase with the active driver anyway.

2. Make the bass channel with its own SS PR (say 1 active + 1 passive SS), the same box size as the Dannoy to make the PR work under the same conditions.

In both cases Dannoy works unfiltered as high passing seems to destroy its sound (I haven't tried myself yet).



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-10-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 282
Post ID: 26985
Reply to: 26984
"PR"
When the passive radiator in question is mentioned, are we sill talking about a particular active 10" Scanspeak driver that is not hooked up to an amp? Again, the PR is always parasitic, more or less fighting with the active driver, except, apparently, at its own "Fs". Wouldn't another PR do "the same thing" to the LF array? Who needs more drag on the active LF drivers, with the PR flipping phase and shutting down the LFdown low? Not sure, just based on an abrupt 180 phase shift, how to tie the top of the LF array with the bottom of the Dannoy/Dunnoy.


Paul S
11-11-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 440
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 283
Post ID: 26986
Reply to: 26983
That matches the behaviour of many musical wind instruments too
Interesting video. It is a compelling argument for open back, infinite baffle or transmission lines designed to completely absorb the back wave. Everything else simply works much differently than we want to believe...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-17-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 284
Post ID: 26987
Reply to: 26391
I have no clue
I do not know what is going on. A couple of days ago I turn playback and decided to play I very much non-demand material and with suddenly the sound I ever heard. I do not know what is going on. I am slowly contemplating the idea to bring horns back to rotation. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-17-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 285
Post ID: 26988
Reply to: 26987
What sound?
What sound? With Remedies or horns? Funnily enough, a few days ago I played via Dannoys my heaviest cannon - Decca London Reference +FR64S all silver wired, Charcroft Z-foils etc etc. Big symphonic music, not particularly my favorite but... it was damn, damn good! I was surprised by the big sound Dannoys produced! 
I'm still thinking of the subs but first the preamp and few quick & simple tweaks to test: 1. add a bit of loose rockwool filling to the boxes. i suspect that some MF energy coming out of scanspeaks are actually box reflections 2. 4mm felt around Reds to somewhat kill the reflections from the front panel 3. QRD diffusers on the ceiling   

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-17-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 286
Post ID: 26989
Reply to: 26988
Some distance
 N-set wrote:
QRD diffusers on the ceiling   

QRD diffusers need distance to work properly that you are unlikely to have at the ceiling.  BAD panels or better yet the convex type diffusors are probably better options.
11-17-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 287
Post ID: 26990
Reply to: 26989
Good point

Anthony, good point (as always from you). First, my initial thought is to avoid any absorption not to deaden the room more than it is dead now. Hence hardwood diffusers. Right or wrong, the experiments will tell. Second, I did a bit of research and found this rule in the diffusers' bible Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers Theory, design and application,  page 37:

"Precedence has shown that it is best if the listener is at least three wavelengths away from diffusers."
The panels' I've ordered are 550Hz and up which gives minimum of 2.1m. I can do that (diffuser-to-listening-position) even in my small space.
Interestingly, on p.38 the authors even suggest that being as close as 1m away from a reflecting surface, it is better the surface is diffusive rather than plane.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-22-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 288
Post ID: 27008
Reply to: 26988
I am a moron
 N-set wrote:
i suspect that some MF energy coming out of scanspeaks are actually box reflections
Hey N-set, as I am back listening to my Dannoys and I listened again about a week ago for the passive radiator and found -
 Edgar= wrote:
The Scanspeak still resonates a lot of MF energy...
This statement is not the case. Not sure what moron wrote that, but it is not the case. 
It sounds like a black hole or like a window to the back of the box. I thought to myself "I can hear the inside of the box". It could be more delusion from me but interested to see what you find.
03-01-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 289
Post ID: 27343
Reply to: 26984
Drum and base
I recently had a visit by a close friend, who is an accomplished modern jazz saxophonist but a recording/mixing engineer, running his own small studio. We listened to some bass-heavy material on my Dannoys, the bass was acoustic - piano and drums. Damn good bass, damn good. I want more of it. I'm slowly coming back to the idea of a passive radiator sub to match the complicated phase behavior of PR in Dannoys. Sth like this:

1. 40+Hz sealed box with 2x10" ScanSpeak
2. One Scanspeak active, one is passive
3. Dannoys go unfiltered not to mess with its beautiful bass 
4. Subs low passed somewhere around 60Hz to be determined exactly

Any thoughts? Hopefully the subs would reinforce the Dannoys rather than interfering with them because of the similar phase pattern at LF. My knowledge of speakers is poor, do you know of any software when I could simulate such an arrangement before building? There are lots of programs to simulate sealed/BR boxes but haven't found one for passive radiators.  


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
03-01-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 290
Post ID: 27344
Reply to: 27343
The Ears Have It
Jarek, I have waited for some time for someone to advance a theoretical solution for your situation, as the problem you pose has been advanced repeatedly here for some time now. One might think about putting the PR on the opposite side of the cabinet, but according to theory even this would be +/- a one note solution. Someone, please put me right on this. Not sure about your turnaround time for boxes, but you might just have to test ideas and track audible results in your own space, yourself.

Anyway, nice that you have something you like to start with. So, don't mess with that, but make sure you can get that back any time you want to.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-05-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 291
Post ID: 27346
Reply to: 27343
I do not know
Jarek, I know exactly how you feel. There is some magic in 10 Read loaded passively to ScanSpeak SD1 motor with paper cone. The ScanSpeak with this semi-rubber suspension are not the neutral drivers but they have very pleasant, at least ty my ears, very nice, enriched with second harmonics distortions. This distortion with a puffy resonance at 50-70hr somehow sucks out the colored nature of the Tannoy red woofer and it all together works very nice, particularly for non-complex music. I worked sensationally as a prototype project and that had huge impact over me. As a prototype project you close your eyes to multiple shortcomings, and you feel that when this prototype going to be rendered as and final solution the shortcomings might be overcome. It did not happen in my case, at least in context of the efforts that I spent. I never succeeded complemented with more significant base and I never was able to make it to play loud. Elso, I failed to calculate the very precise size of enclosure necessary to make all the system work properly. Generally speaking, if you have a very very small listening room and very up-close position, and if you still do not play very loud then it might be wonderful near field monitor. Use the existing 50-70hr resonances and do not go deeper. If you're willing to expand simple red-ScanSpeak combination, then you are in your own. I absolutely failed on it and you are in unchartered territory. If you do find something that work, then please let me know. Saying all of it, I had a spectacular trophy from my parlay into the Tanoy saga. I use Red 10 tweeter with completely disconnected woofer as a reader for my main system, driven by Milq.  I cannot express how stunning it is and that is absolutely the best that I ever seen in context of my playback.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-06-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 292
Post ID: 27347
Reply to: 27346
Exactly!
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Elso, I failed to calculate the very precise size of enclosure necessary to make all the system work properly. Generally speaking, if you have a very very small listening room and very up-close position, and if you still do not play very loud then it might be wonderful near field monitor.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I have a small room, walls close to the speakers, big sofa, etc etc.  Recently I moved my seat even closer than it was so now the head is about 2m from the tweeters. To my surprise it did not spoil the coherence. I also attempted that Sumiko speaker placement method. Was quite caricatural in my case as I cannot move the speakers much due to the constraints and the changes were rather small but I did reach some interesting point where the sound was definitely louder and cleaner. Playing Bruckner 8 by Wand (Harmonia Mundi LP), I could touch that madness that struck me when I first heard that LP through my Stax chain. I did not experiment with the volume either, sticking to your initial recipe. I only added 10cm mineral wool at the back wall and 20cm at the bottom (almost covering behind the ScanSpeak) to decrease the MF output through the PR. I did not detect anything re the base extension and measurements were rather unreliable, but the MF output was gone. The main motivation to look for the base extension is my hope to add some "LF breathing" and add spaciousness to the sound. 2nd motivation is add more of that "motor", the driving force of an orchestra. The idea sis to add a woofer with the same Scanspeak PR to match one to the other. Stacking PR woofers seems doable, REL shows it with one of its series for whatever it's worth. Another idea to open up the sound is to add a supertweeter. There are Fostex with big alnico magnets.

Paul, my turnover times are only a bit shorter than changes in the catholic church, so I'm looking for a modelling tool first. Looks like I've found something- WinISD. Fortunately PR's are quite popular now, so there is some information on the web. I don't think I'm buying the one-note description of the PR. 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
03-07-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 293
Post ID: 27348
Reply to: 27347
Look before you LEAP
Another tool used by sound pros is LEAP. The guy who designed my BassZillas (some time ago) used this tool to make the most of a BR enclosure. As for the Fostex (U)HF, the pros tend to correct them digitally, as they need "something". Mainly, did you miss that Romy removed his RAAL super-duper UHF when he put the stock tweeter from the Tannoy on his stack, and he has just purred about this tweeter. The Visaton TL16H I use has a long, fairly flat tail, and it seems to work fine with a simple, passive X/O, if (more) UHF is still wanted after LF is fixed to your taste.

Nice that you scored that LP! Any good compared to the CD?

Best regards,
Paul S
03-07-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 294
Post ID: 27349
Reply to: 27348
Supertweeter
Thank you Paul! Yes, I did notice Romy's tweeter movement, he also described it two posts ago. But I have a different room than him  (smaller, dead, close walls, etc). I like the HF a lot, esp. with Ortofon cartridges, but I'm missing some air. Can supertweeter help with that? No idea. Anyone?

HM B8 LP - I don't have the CD version, so that LP is my only reference.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
Page 15 of 15 (294 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 11 12 13 14 15
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  641698  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  27132  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  9913  11-09-2021
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