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04-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 41
Post ID: 15946
Reply to: 10333
A serious Tapped ULF horn in Massachusetts?
fiogf49gjkf0d
It kind of said the Massachusetts is very much not “horny” state and there is not a lot of enthusiasts of horn loading live in Massachusetts or in the entire New England. If we New Englanders have the saturation of horn interest as high as California has then it would be interesting to commission some kind of public study of Tapped ULF horn vs. ULF infinite enclosure. The answer is never was given and I do not think that any serious Sonic tests of Sealed vs. Tapped for ULF application ever was conducted.

I have a few 4X8 Baltic bitch sheets left over from the Midbass project; I have the necessary machines to cut and to glue the wood and a very good size workshop in my basement. I have a facility to test the things. It would be interesting is somebody with composite knowledge about Tapped horns would built one let say 12Hz Tapped horn and then we will have a change to try it out. I have enough stupidity in me to commission 12Hz Tapped horn to a carpenter but I do not have knowledge to navigate this project as I am not familiar with Tapped horns, in fact I am not sure that I understand how they work.

I think if New England had more presence of horn enthusiasts then it would be possible to brew our local know-how…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JoshK
Posts 7
Joined on 10-13-2009
Post #: 42
Post ID: 15947
Reply to: 15946
DTS-10
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe not exactly what your striving for, but there is a kit that Danley SL sells called the DTS-10 that supposedly has a lower knee of 11hz.  Its down a bit at that frequency but given some room gain still very useable output down low. 

04-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 43
Post ID: 15948
Reply to: 15947
Danley DTS-10 new kit.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Thanks, Josh. I looked for it and found a good link that accumulates a lot of recourses about Danley DTS-10.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1189404

I did not know about DTS-10 but this morning I did sent to Tom an email asking his view about the whole notion of Trapper horn vs. infinite baffle direct radiator array.

I will look into DTS-10 with more attention but no one knows what kind of “sound” it produces. I am sure it will hit the targeted pressure level but there is so much more to it. Also, if I use Trapper horns then I would like them to be narrow thin column but very tall. Let say sq. 1 foot of footprint and 8 feet tall.  I will read more information about Danley DTS-10 kit and will see if among the people who will be taking about sound of DTS-10 I find anything interesting.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JoshK
Posts 7
Joined on 10-13-2009
Post #: 44
Post ID: 15949
Reply to: 15948
That's it
fiogf49gjkf0d
I tried, unsuccessfully, to post that link, but you found it.   I am not certain if you will find useable comments about its sound, but there are some there that are quite knowledgeable and many others that are number jockies.

The size/format is also why I did not persue it further.  I have high ceilings but limited wall space so I too would prefer a column oreintation.  A clever person could possibly reverse engineer the tapped-horn and refold it in a different manner.  Or simply design a new tapped-horn with similar performance.

I am mostly awed by how Danley got around the standard rolloff on the lower knee.  I admit that I haven't read that thread closely enough to have seen whether he suggested why.  Typically TH, being a bandpass device have sharper rolloffs outside of their bandwidth.  Somehow Mr. Danley skirted this in his design to give a shallower lower rolloff.   
04-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-11-2010
Post #: 45
Post ID: 15950
Reply to: 15949
Eric of Volvotreter's tapped Horns
fiogf49gjkf0d


Eric of Volvotreter seems very happy with the performance of the tapped horns in his horn loaded system. You can find out more here:

http://www.volvotreter.de/th.htm

Regards
Rakesh
04-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 46
Post ID: 15951
Reply to: 15949
Testing the water…
fiogf49gjkf0d
If I try Trapped Horn then it will be ether 90” toll or 108” tool and as narrow as possible. I am not looking for “reverse engineer the tapped-horn and refold it in a different manner” but rather to somebody who know what they do to design the right toll and narrow horn from scratch. I personally have absolutely zero understanding why and how the Trapped Horn works.

The complexity however is not in the design the Trapped Horns or right dimensions and right performing characteristics but to evaluate if I need it. You see, I am not frustrated with my ULF section now. My only interest in Trapped Horns is that it might give me +10dB -15dB sensitivity at sub 20Hz and would allow me to use DSET, perhaps a pair of paralleled 6C33C would be able to drive it.  I do not know – a lot of wearable are involved. I do not plan anything at this point but I am juts only test the water…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008
Post #: 47
Post ID: 15955
Reply to: 15951
I'm no expert, but here goes...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy, I have a DIY 8ft tapped horn taking up about 16" x 16" of floor space. From my experience it might be too short to go flat down to 20hz, you can make it "longer" by folding it more than once but it'll most likely end up bigger than 12" x 12". Secondly, a 12" x 12" tapped horn means you can only use a 10 inch driver. I don't know how that'll restrict your final outcome but I thought it was worth mentioning. Lastly, I'm able to get around 90-95db efficiency down to 23hz in my tapped horns but I like driving them with 300w SS amps for the more controlled bass performance. Best, Keith
04-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 48
Post ID: 15960
Reply to: 15955
Theory vs. Sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
Interesting, Keith. You got 95db at 23Hz, I thigh the idea of to use tapped horn it to get more sensitivity. Did you intentionally did not target 102-103dB or you went for wider bandwidth instead of gain? You also use 300w SS amps. Did you try to use SETs with sufficient power?

I still do not get if the tapped horn behave like accelerated horns or they more like bass reflexes enclosure with reduced port noise. I understand the theory behind but I do not understand/familiar with Sound of the things.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009
Post #: 49
Post ID: 16011
Reply to: 15960
Delay issue
fiogf49gjkf0d
Would not a 9ft-11ft long bass horn path (tapped horn or any horns) cause a sonic problem if not physically time aligned with the upper bass or mid bass channel? The only way to fix that would be to place the bass horn 9-11ft closer TO YOU than other channels or add a delay to all other channels. Correct?

I am also considering tapped horn columns to be crossed at 100Hz to my midbass and from talking to Danley labs, they recommend to delay the other channels by something like 6mSec.

Herman
04-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JoshK
Posts 7
Joined on 10-13-2009
Post #: 50
Post ID: 16015
Reply to: 16011
I'm not convinced
fiogf49gjkf0d
I know the standard logic is that everything needs to be time-aligned, but essentially the lower the frequency seemingly the less critical time-alignment should be, at least on paper.  I've heard of studies where it is suggested at low frequencies that the human ear cannot hear the sound until a full wavelength has been played.  If that is true, then ponder this:

6ms is 167hz or ~2m.  100hz is roughly 3.4m.  If you didn't hear that frequency until a full wavelength, then the tone would have to tranverse 3.4m before you could detect it.  So is moving it 10" one way or another going to matter much?

Now, I do not know if 100hz is low enough to be considered "low frequency" for the above study, in fact I am sure it isn't, but the point was that are hearing acuity drops with the inverse of frequency down low.  So it seems to follow that time alignment at 100hz would be less critical than 200hz and 20hz would be far less critical than 100hz. 

The question then follows is how critical is time-alignment at  100hz?

I am just not convinced by dogmatic theorizing.  I'd be more swayed by someone's empirical analysis (which I've not done, which is why I am skeptical, not decided) but one needs to be very careful that room modes aren't the main cause of the difference in perception rather than time alignment.   I actually think it might be easier to test this idea with headphones and computer generated delay. 
04-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008
Post #: 51
Post ID: 16016
Reply to: 16015
Maybe...lots of factors working together change the equation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe, but from a practical perspective, theory can be pretty useless as the listening experience is the cumulation of many factors.

My experience (if you care) is that at lower frequencies, room modes get increasingly more difficult to address but time alignment is still critical. Without both factors being sorted (along with a reasonable knee that is well documented on this site), I never got decent low fq integration and I have spent hundreds of hours trying to sort this. 

I am pretty lucky to find a sub location in my room best addresses room modes and is simultaneously time aligned. Moving either the sub or my listening position by less than 1" drastically impacts integration.

Unfortunately sub location is to my right shoulder and despite rapid roll off outside ~25hz and ~60hz when listening I can sometimes locate this thing but just barely. Time aligned in front of the listening room solved the location issue but room modes got more problematic so it stays where it is.

BTW maybe these are learned sensitivities just as a good harp player learns the subtleties of his or her instrument over the years. 
04-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JoshK
Posts 7
Joined on 10-13-2009
Post #: 52
Post ID: 16017
Reply to: 16016
Good to know
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am still open minded about the topic as I just haven't done the experiment myself yet.  I am just strongly skeptical of dogma and much prefer a well thought out argument or empirical results. 
04-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 53
Post ID: 16021
Reply to: 16017
The sub-subject. Terra Incognita of audio.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Josh, I think that you touched more complicated subject then you think. Let me to explain why I feel this way.

The fact that I advocate a dogmatic, religiously-stubborn, almost paranoid time alignment of the channels is not a secret. I do feel very comfortable with my time alignment paranoia and I have no need to debate or defend it. So, far any single installation that I heard, including mine, was benefited by time alignment. The people who visit me and question the time-alignment subject I usually do very short demonstration by taking one of channels out of alignment and explaining to them what specifically they need to pay attention while they are listening. Uselessly there is not more question after then.

The time alignment in bass is of cause is less critical but if to know what specifically to listen then I need to report that I have no problems to recognize the sonic difference when my woofer woofers towers are moved for a 6 inchers away. I do not insist that the change is due to the time alignment, it is very much that it just room modes act differently. Still, the most proper condensing of leading edge of bass pressure ways I get when my woofers towers are aligned with my upper bass? A coincidence? Perhaps, I do not know bay what is the differences. I care about right position of woofers towers in the room and it happened to be where it happened to be. We have very little control over it anyhow….
So, way do I feel that it is “mode complicated subject”? Because there is in it a sub-subject about witch I’ve been thinking for a while and I did not come a comfortable answer.  The sub-subject is the time- alignment for ULF region.

The ULD is sub-auditable bass and in addition to “pressurize” the “nervousness” of the room it prolongs the reverberation time in the room.  The extension of reverberation time in the room is not something that needs to be time-aligned. It needs to be delayed: the lower frequency the longer delay. We can’t do it by our real-time, analog signal processing methods, so what can we do only to set out ULF to be delay for a fixed time with respect to the size and a few other conditions of our rooms. This setting is very “strategic” and it shall be very interesting to play with it. From one side you would like to synchronize the “nervousness” of the room with your music but from other side you want the “nervousness” precede the auditable event, letting your guts to be “pre-cooked”. This is a very interesting and a bit complex subject that I am look forward to explore when I have back my ULF channels.

Now, remind you that I have not proper ULF as my ULF goes too high in might estimation. I might change it in future but in context of this thread I think to tray a pair of Tapped Horns of 12Hz-22 Hz would be more interesting. That would be true ULF and I would be able to run the delays without affecting the auditable range and compromising my Midbass. I wish I know how Tapped Horns sound and how far their sound subjectively from ported ULF enclosures.

Funny but I do not even know if the ported ULF enclosures are not useable for ULF. The ULF is very much a dark side of moon in audio and unfortunately it is costly to explore and serve relatively diminutive result.

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 54
Post ID: 16201
Reply to: 16021
My take about tapped horns for now.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have explored the subject of tapped horns. My exploration did not include listening them – ridicules, isn’t it? I did consult with a few folks, who I respect and who built and heard many of them and who know subject well. I pretty much know what I need to do if I decided to make a pair of tapped sun 20Hz ULF horns. However, after much considerations I decided do not try them.

There are two factors that made me to hold the attempt of test tapped ULF. First is that even if I make over 100dB sensitive tapped ULF then I will not be able to drive it with 20W DSET. Whoever use tapped LF horn insist in over 100W – so, no DSET, no need to go for tapped ULF. Second reason is my fear that tapped horn my in the end to sound like good ported speaker.  I do not have reasons for this fear but I do not have confidence that my fear is unreasonable. Whoever I spoke with did not give me the “magic keywords” that made me comfortable that tapped horn is not a “port with help”. I am very anal about fine differences I ULF overtones and I do not know if tapped will be discriminating enough.

I have to say that to find some kind of semi-local guy with tapped horn would not address my interests as I do not need to hear ANY tapped horn but rather properly sounding tapped horn. Sine I have no inspiration what would be a properly sounding tapped horn I have no idea what to look for. I guess the way how I might undertake the tapped ULF direction would be if somebody who know tapped horn well would stop by at my place, hear my ULF, point out to me the specific sonic problems I have with my ULF and suggest that those problem might be addressed by use of tapped ULF. If someone has those expertise them let me know and we could make some kind arrangement.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-26-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 55
Post ID: 17752
Reply to: 10333
The new use of Trapped Horn idea.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The idea of trapped horn looks like get very popular among audio people. I have no position on the subject and I do not know if trapped horn is able to facilitate proper sound and if it drastically different from the sound of operated enclosures. I never heard a properly made and installed setting with trapped horns, so I will demonstrate no opinion on the subject.

However, regardless the ability of trapped horns to produce bass that I would consider “proper bass” they for sure produce bass and by relatively small efforts and size. So, an elegant idea come to me and it looks like it never was implemented before, least I did not hear about it.

Why do not use the trapped horns and to make a “full range” monitor? There are zillion floor-stating bookshelf monitors out there. Usually the bookshelf monitors are two ways speakers of 1-2 cub feet, some of them not bad. To make them floor-stating the makers add to them nice and in some cased elaborate stands. So, why do not build trapped horns INSIDE the stand for bookshelf monitors. Take a look at topology: a two way monitor with just sub 100dB sensitivity and vertically positioned “clandestine” trapped horn of let say 40Hz inside the stands? It sounds very reasonable to me.

It you are a manufactures and you embrace my idea then, please, contribute the proceeds from your first sales to your local shelter for homeless felines.

Rgs, 
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-12-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Shashi
Posts 1
Joined on 01-26-2018
Post #: 56
Post ID: 25035
Reply to: 10438
Image Refresh
Attachments are no longer visible posts 23 to 28. Is it possible to refresh them?
08-13-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,143
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 57
Post ID: 25036
Reply to: 25035
Sorry, no images any more.
Sorry, Shashi, I can’t help you with it. The images john used were not stored at my server but were coming from myspacecdn.com. The images are not available at the remote server anymore and I do not cache the images from other URLs

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 58
Post ID: 25593
Reply to: 25036
Danley DTS-20.
This is an old topic, but just in case, Danley now offer the DTS20, and that seems to have the format ratio Romy was looking for in the past.

Cheers!



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Barn Conversion - James' Project..  The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     28  365378  02-04-2007
  »  New  About bass horns by Johan Dreyer..  There are lowest bass horns and there are not lowest b...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  94553  02-11-2008
  »  New  Denouncing of idea of Bass Horns...  Denouncing of idea of Bass Horns....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  26868  04-15-2008
  »  New  ... again on GOTO Unit drivers.....  GOTO installation in Lithuania....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     108  1141149  08-16-2008
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  87314  11-03-2008
  »  New  My Multi-way Horns..  Faital chamber/ratio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  127152  11-29-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     150  1395195  09-15-2010
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