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08-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 74
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 181
Post ID: 14214
Reply to: 14210
Some explanations
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The bass traps, the biggest one, have only limited effectiveness on the spectra of interest and usually have much more effectiveness in 2-3 octave above the spectra of interest. This make bass to sound less problematic but it dries out the bass’ overtones, - I do not like it. Also, the bass traps are a solution for single box speaker.


I understand when you say bass traps have limited effect on low bass and thats mostly correct but not always ...the reason is they are not real bass traps they claimed .

The bass which has lots of energy is much like air motion (below 100hz) and hard to control or absorb.
we only have 3 choices in closed spaces to control them without drying out the upper bass :
1-resonate (limp mass)
2-lump mass
In situation 1 you need to have something vibrating so it can absorb the bass in closed room much of the bass is absorbed by resonating walls and items in it.and yet much of the bass is still enable to pass through the walls because its energy. if you have loose or thick walls more bass can pass through but the problem may rise after the main sound stops in air and they start vibrating and making the Q in your room to rise up.
if you make the walls harder less vibration but the reflected bass inside the room remains after the main sound source stops.
the ideal is to let less bass pass through while having more bass absorbed im not going into this subject right now .
and you can also get help from resonating panels which can resonate at low frequencies and stop immediately. that cant be easily done.or tune.

In situation 2 you can use rlc circuited acoustics to tune n build a circuit which can have fx to absorb a bass frequency
an example is a tuned port box which if it gets tuned to low Q frequency it can damp the specific bass frequency.
or if you can make something to act like this circuit then you can have benefits of damping your problematic bass Fq without even touching ur upper bass. yet thats not an easy game.

AND if you use something like fake bass traps which use simple distributed mass acoustics then you end up with that Wilson sets...
yes ... killing all your mid bass n hardly effecting the fundamentals that is how many companies out there claim to make bass traps and sell you bunch of fiberglass clothed racks as bass trap...

 Romy the Cat wrote:

I would like do not correct my room under 1Khz but rather to optimize my Macondo to take advantage of whatever good or bad my room does. 

well I am not dictating that you fail trying this way because there are many mixed parameters out there in real world which can change the way you can get a good sound. so i never say not do or try not that. it is a MUST .

but the basic is tuning your room bass first because there we have many good reasons for it like:

1- That is where all the positioning matters and change A LOT.like moving sound source to other side of a room.

2- you cant run away or try to get any good sound if you have problem in that region 

figure it out 

and if you wonder where if anyone making or doing any real good to acoustics :

there is a good acoustic company in u.s.a called ASC the owner Art Noxon is knowing what he is doing and the tube traps they have made can absorb down to 20hz ... 

he always friendly for any question about rooms and etc... 

he can give you really good tips beside what he can offer you commercially 

read their site about how to trap bass without drying uppppper bass:

http://www.asc-hifi.com/acoustic_basics.htm#1

in article there is a link too about it i dunno where to find it atm

I know what you may think.  dw I am not an  ASC worker

I myself built a new type of tube trap and used it in my room and the results are decent and what I was looking for.

I create a new threat for it soon cuz its been finished ... and there i share more info

rgz

 unicon
08-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 182
Post ID: 14220
Reply to: 14214
No bass in my room for now - to be continue…
fiogf49gjkf0d
Unicon, yes, this subject will be very much continue when I am ready and have some actual data in my head. The good news is that I learn that ASC goes custom work, I did not know it. I just afraid that ASC is a large company and they would make me to deal with them via my local dealers. My local ASC dealer is Goodwin’s high-end and I am not a big fun of this store. Still it is good to know.

What I shared is the objectives and at this point I have no idea if I would address the room perspective problem by tailoring of my channels. I need to have the channels installed and then I will see how it goes. I know that if I need any external help for bass control, like lump mass, then I would like to have very well-defined understanding and specification of what I need, how it will be addressed and what the finals result I would like to get. At this point I have no problems to deal with and I have no bass in my room.  This subject to be continues…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 183
Post ID: 14234
Reply to: 13235
Ok, now let to rebuild Macondo.
fiogf49gjkf0d
OK, I disconnected my MiniMe speakers and left only Macondo to care sound in the room. I was listing for the last week Macondo. There is no bass, just upperbass horn at the bottom and The Injection channel a full range. It is OK sound but truly nothing spectacular or I would even say interesting. I think I need to review the whole Macondo arrangement and design it from ground up in the new room.  this how I was able to make Macondo in the old room and this I think what I need to do here to assure that each element to perform at own optimum best.
 
So, I disconcerted all channels with exception of MF and Upperbass and let them to play alone. They are the key MF sound and I know how they need to be. What can I say – I do not like what I hear. It lacks dynamics, it has very diluted colors, it reverberant, it just dirty and has no sophisticated finesse in details as it use to have. Also, the upperbass is very dry and not as lash as I would like it to be. There are a bunch of other problems….

Well, it pretty much it – there is no reason to go anywhere further until the problems with those two channels are addressed and until the channels will perform as I would like then to do perform The fight for new Macondo has began.

CatInBackLight.jpg

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 184
Post ID: 14236
Reply to: 14234
OK, it’s getting ugly
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
OK, I disconnected my MiniMe speakers and left only Macondo to care sound in the room. I was listing for the last week Macondo. There is no bass, just upperbass horn at the bottom and The Injection channel a full range. It is OK sound but truly nothing spectacular or I would even say interesting. I think I need to review the whole Macondo arrangement and design it from ground up in the new room.  this how I was able to make Macondo in the old room and this I think what I need to do here to assure that each element to perform at own optimum best.
 
So, I disconcerted all channels with exception of MF and Upperbass and let them to play alone. They are the key MF sound and I know how they need to be. What can I say – I do not like what I hear. It lacks dynamics, it has very diluted colors, it reverberant, it just dirty and has no sophisticated finesse in details as it use to have. Also, the upperbass is very dry and not as lash as I would like it to be. There are a bunch of other problems….

Well, it pretty much it – there is no reason to go anywhere further until the problems with those two channels are addressed and until the channels will perform as I would like then to do perform The fight for new Macondo has began.


I checked everything in the system and did not see any fault that might be responsible for the effect.  I is just a MF driver and it is severely compromised. Instead of my typical luxuriant and incredibly complex MF I have almost digitized copy of MF. I know, it sounds to somebody who did not hear Macondo that I am kissing myself in ass – a typical behavior for only-audio people, but it happens only with somebody who did not hear the Macondo. In addition the Macondo’s MF exponentials get worth with volume goes up. Playing loud it truly is falling apart, and it is juts MF driver!

It got to be the room just can’t hold I concluded….

So, I took from basemen a dozen of Sonex large sheets (2’x5’ I believe) and load the listening room with it. In addition I have 12 RPG panels that I put in the room as well. Plus the sail on the ceiling… Plus two dozen of soft things that I spread around the room. Plus one fuzzy Pussy. The room looked like God just vomited all over the room. However, to my pleasure and hate the  MF got MUCH cleaner, not perfect however. The colors and the nuances went back but at large volume the MF drive in some odd distortions. Then, juts for experiment I did what I hated to do – I covered the large 25” by 7” feet glass window behind the Macondo with soft, 4 layered,  1” think, fabric blinds (very cool blinds for acoustic purpose – and the come with the house!). All negative problem are instantly evaporated! The MF went to be saturated and super expressive.

This is very good and very bad. Very good is that I know the problem and I know the direction I need to do..But it is also very bad as I do not want to convert my living room into a dentist office and I absolutely love the view from my large windows and door between the speakers. I was under impression that the glass of the window and doors behind the speakers will not affect Sound to much as the Macondo is well extended into the room and there are good 10 feet between horn mouths and the glass. Not a chance!!!

OK, I need to devise some kind of décor and treatment that would do as Russians say: “to keep wolfs full and the sheeps unhurt”. To be continue….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 185
Post ID: 14238
Reply to: 14236
Acrylate
fiogf49gjkf0d
Replace the windows with acrylate glass?
08-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 186
Post ID: 14239
Reply to: 14236
Magic blanket
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote:
 
"...Then, juts for experiment I did what I hated to do – I covered the large 25” by 7” feet glass window behind the Macondo with soft, 4 layered,  1” think, fabric blinds (very cool blinds for acoustic purpose – and the come with the house!). All negative problem are instantly evaporated! The MF went to be saturated and super expressive..."
 
One day I hung a thick, wool blanket, centered on the wall behind my current system (which is similar to Romy's Macandos; see it here):
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4898#4898 

The impact was MASSIVE, and totally out of proportion to the simplicity of the act.
 
The blanket is not magic, but rather a piece of the puzzle that allowed all previous work to shine. 
  
The resulting effect manifests itself in many ways, but the easiest of those to communicate would be how much louder I set the volume; it just never sounds too loud. The presentation is intimate, all-enveloping and, when appropriate, truly immense. Some credit must go to the lower-bass channels; with the addition of the attenuating blanket, I found it necessary to increase the output of these channels relative to the rest of the system. A familiar story; HF directly affecting perception of LF. I also went from 16 Ohm to 8 Ohm, and finally to 4 Ohm Fane drivers in the upper-bass horns (I found a freak custom-ordered pair of the 8Ms with 4 Ohm voice coils) thereby increasing the output of that channel.
 
"...This is very good and very bad. Very good is that I know the problem and I know the direction I need to do..But it is also very bad as I do not want to convert my living room into a dentist office and I absolutely love the view from my large windows and door between the speakers..."

I've always found it nearly impossible to make an "airy" room sound good, which is fine because I don't feel comfortable sitting in an airy space when listening to music; I'll take an English grandmother's living room any day.
 
On that subject, and for the amusement of all Goodsoundclub readers...

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, I converted a small room into what amounts to an anechoic chamber... Even without music, I loved being in this space. With music playing, eyes closed, lost in a trance, if anyone entered the room I could immediately detect the difference.

Try not to laugh too hard! Yes this is an example of sheer idiocy and room treatment taken too far, but I was ignorant and curious! These were my very early audio days.  


Anechoic LR 01.jpg

Note window is also covered... At one point, even the floor was covered with foam.
(That's an old Krell KAV 500 wpc amp driving a pair of Danish JBLs... You gotta start somewhere!)

I include this image because it would be very possible to frame panels with this sort of treatment, upholstering them with acoustically transparent, light-colored fabric, thereby maintaining that "airy" feeling. The foam is also available in light colors.

I of course recommend going with the English grandmother's décor, and just getting that "airy" feeling by switching over to mentholated cigarettes!

As for your large glass doors, I know of no transparent attenuation devices; seems the best option is to use the blinds you mentioned.

jd*

(Romy, apologies, I accidentally uploaded a 10 meg version of this image to your server; I meant to send a copy having a resolution more appropriate for web viewing)


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 187
Post ID: 14241
Reply to: 14239
Ok, let go for the plan “B”
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, I understand all of it but I not exactly agree that I need to convert the room into English grandmother style, of even worst into physical lab. In fact I have seen a few relatively loose rooms that sounded fine and I hope that the specifics of my room would allow me to go away with a need of too heavy treatment.  It is obviously the I will need to put more treatment on the walls then I initially expected but I still would like do not go to the extend as Jessie did in the image above.

A few things that I would like to bring up. The grass behind the Macondo is MUCH more affective destroyer of sound then the rest treatment in the entire room. I did not expect it and I thought the glass was too far. In the past I give a lot criticism to the people who put TV between their speakers but the TVs were always between the speakers and they always are effective. In my case the glass 10 feet behind and I thought it will be tolerable – no lack on this – the glass is main offender in my room. I have good blinds to cover the glass. They are thick soft tubes and they cure the sound VERY dramatically. However, the room becomes a bit anticlimacticy-boring with the blinds down....

NewRoom_NoWindows.JPG

I began to think about the SOME acoustic treatment treatments that I would use. I do have some idea by my concern is colors. I want only colors that I want. There are companies that do custom colors and custom shapes. This one is for instance.

http://www.pinta-acoustic.com/products_WallPanels.php

http://www.pinta-acoustic.com/products_ColorChart.php#SONEX

They do the Ceiling Clouds as well

http://www.pinta-acoustic.com/products_WWclouds.php

However, their prices are ridicules. Some wooden diffuser panels that I would like to use are also cost a lot and they are not exactly what I would like to have. So, I wonder if it make sense for me to make my own acoustic treatment. The foam and Styrofoam cutters are very simple to do (hot wire) and I can ask my carpenter to live for me his machines and then I will be able to make my own skyline diffusers by my own specification. I do not know yet, I still am contemplating the options….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 188
Post ID: 14243
Reply to: 14241
The great Midwest to the rescue
fiogf49gjkf0d
You might try the Foam Factory; they are easy to deal with, inexpensive, have online ordering, quick turn around and can ship anywhere.
They are NOT a typical audiophile-oriented acoustic room treatment supplier. Nevertheless, they are equipped to cut foam for this purpose.

Their main business is in supplying seat cushions for all the Michigan folks who have boats on the nearby lake and cabins "up North". They also do custom mattresses (from "medical memory", visco-elastic foam). They are used to working with custom requests. I'd be willing to bet that even with shipping to Massachusetts, they'd cost you far less than anyone else you might find.

Use your imagination; they'll work with you.

http://www.usafoam.com/acousticfoam/acousticfoam.html

About the blinds you have: Amazing; they inspire suicide!

Rather than absorbing, you might consider diffusing via thick, wooden slat blinds (in a light-colored wood for that "airy" feeling). Good ones are expensive, so you'd want to verify by doing an experiment before investing. They do not visually choke off the room unless completely closed, which you'd likely never do, as they woldn't be much good as diffusers unless partially open.

Wooden Slat Blinds Vertical 01.jpg Wooden Slat Blinds Horizontal 01.jpg

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 189
Post ID: 14244
Reply to: 14241
TV between speaker have what effect?
fiogf49gjkf0d
what is impact of TV between speaker?

I too assume it is only bad, so have never experimented with having TV in and then taking it out.

Are you saying it can have good effect?
08-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 190
Post ID: 14245
Reply to: 14244
I have a few options.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
You might try the Foam Factory; they are easy to deal with, inexpensive, have online ordering, quick turn around and can ship anywhere.
They are NOT a typical audiophile-oriented acoustic room treatment supplier. Nevertheless, they are equipped to cut foam for this purpose.

Their main business is in supplying seat cushions for all the Michigan folks who have boats on the nearby lake and cabins "up North". They also do custom mattresses (from "medical memory", visco-elastic foam). They are used to working with custom requests. I'd be willing to bet that even with shipping to Massachusetts, they'd cost you far less than anyone else you might find.

Use your imagination; they'll work with you.

http://www.usafoam.com/acousticfoam/acousticfoam.html

Yep, this Foam Factory look good and the prices are very good, thanks. They do not have the right light colors that I would like to have.  When I spoke with others they had a bit higher prices but as soon I mention that I need custom size (8 by 72) then they wanted almost $300 per sheet - ridicules! I might get standard sheet and to make my own wire cutter…

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Rather than absorbing, you might consider diffusing via thick, wooden slat blinds (in a light-colored wood for that "airy" feeling). Good ones are expensive, so you'd want to verify by doing an experiment before investing. They do not visually choke off the room unless completely closed, which you'd likely never do, as they woldn't be much good as diffusers unless partially open.

I was thinking about them already and I have some other options as well.

 zanon wrote:
what is impact of TV between speaker?  I too assume it is only bad, so have never experimented with having TV in and then taking it out. Are you saying it can have good effect?

A TV between speaker makes imaging very primitive, I never seen before that a “screen” between speaker added so much HF noise being so much being. I presume the size of the “screen” matters or the cathedral ceiling somehow focuses the HF back to the “screen”….

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 191
Post ID: 14247
Reply to: 14245
Foam color
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote:

"...Yep, this Foam Factory look good and the prices are very good, thanks. They do not have the right light colors that I would like to have..."

No problem; this foam can very easily be painted using a device like a Wagner Power Painter (your carpenter probably has one) and normal interior latex house paint.
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Products-305-Painter-Sprayer/dp/B00004TUCG

Start with a light-colored foam, then dust on just enough paint to arrive at a uniform application of the color you want; avoid overloading the foam with paint, as sealing it is undesirable for acoustics (becomes a diffuser). 

The Foam Factory offers what they call "Cornice Boards" (which most people call "crown moldings") that fit at the intersection of the wall and ceiling, made from the same foam as their acoustic products; these cornice boards are intended to painted.

My point in mentioning them is to illustrate that this foam can be painted, but you might also consider using cornice boards for acoustic reasons, as they would serve as buffers in the corners, without looking like acoustic treatments. The part of their site that shows Cornice Boards is currently under construction, but they can do all sorts of shapes.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 192
Post ID: 14251
Reply to: 13235
Strange things with upperbass
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am keep listening my just two channels: MF + upperbass. They sound good and I know this sound VERY well but there is one phenomena that I can’t explained/ in the old room my upperbass went to 95Hz-100Hz. In this new room it doe 140Hz BUT subjectively it is MUCH if not deeper but at least fulfilling. In the old room the 95Hz was not sufficient with lower bass. In the new room the 140Hz sound like the whole orchestra! Very beautiful and very strange. I am listening now Queen of Spades by Gergiev and those Tchaikovsky’s contrabassoons are just out of this world. They are not to low but so palatable and so dynamic that it makes me to jump on my chair.  I have no idea where this  dynamics and this perception of “sufficiency” in bass comes from in the new room.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 193
Post ID: 14253
Reply to: 13235
Air Conditioner Ducts and Vents
fiogf49gjkf0d

It might only appear that it is irrelevant subject. In reality this is the subject of my LONG DREAM… and I have almost realized it.

I spend entire days to redo the Air Conditioner system to accommodate it for my listening room. The house has a center air-conditioner but it did not work as I would like to. It reduces the temperature but it was now what I was looking for. What I was looking for was the Air Conditioner produce the cold in my listing room that would make my testikles to become rectangular.   Now the Air Conditioner drops 5 degree with 5 minutes with all my tube equipment on and temperature outside over 80s. THAT is how I want it to be BUT there is one more critical condition – I wanted my super cool air come to my listening room absolutely silent.

It is silent now but now the cold air comes under big pressure via two 7” pipes. There are no decorative terminators on them, as the wall is not there yet. As many exit Ducts I have tried (any material and shape) the all produce noise that is not expectable. The pipe with no terminator has no noise but it will be a bit ugly – two black holes. So, I need some kind of Absolutely Silent Ducts. I do not care about shape and size – I would like them to be pass high pressure and to be absolutely with no noise of own. I am thinking to make my own ducts from bronze in shale of miniature horns. Did anybody investigated this subject before?

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 194
Post ID: 14254
Reply to: 14253
Teatro reform. . .
fiogf49gjkf0d
A large theater in spain some years back installed a state of the art climate control system which was designed to measure the temperature of the air at every seat and send "conditioned" air to each patron via specially designed silent ducts in front of each seat.  I don't think the system ever worked correctly but I know the the exit ducts (and the whole system) were specially designed to operate at a virtually silent level during performances.  You might consder doing some follow up research as some of the large architectual firms have tackled this issue.
08-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 195
Post ID: 14257
Reply to: 14247
The foaming room dilemma.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I did not expect that I will face a problem with it but it looks as more I educate myself on subject as more I see problems.

Looking and listing my room I have designed the foaming pattern of my room that will do fine acoustically and will not round the room look and fell. It will be done by placing some foam at the “strategic” location on the ridge of the cathedral ceiling and at some locations on the wall.  I use my current chuckle foam and the Tenor Test to confirm that it will be sufficient and I hope it will. The problem is where to get the foam.

The Foam Factory do not offer as good prices as I initial thought and the quote price for individual 72” sheet. Thiers prices are similar to anybody else. The problem is not with prices however. The problem is with the fact that the companies that do manufacture white 2“pyramid foam admit that their foam turned brown in a year or two. Some of the companies claims that this white foam stay while but they sock foams in the chemicals that the smell so bad that I will turn brown if I put the foam a in my living room.

To buy non-white foam and to paint it sounds to me problematic as well. Paining of foam would clause the foam sells and will reduce the acoustic effectiveness of the foam. Alternative might be dyeing the foam in some kind of hair dye or fabric dye. I do not have experience with dyeing and I need to investigate it.

A good option would be to have panels where foam (or whatever) will be encapsulated in a frame and covered by a fine cloth. The problem is that those things need to be made by custom sizes and size I need around 100” of foam it become quote a project. I am still weighing the options.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 196
Post ID: 14258
Reply to: 14257
Melamine Foam
fiogf49gjkf0d
I see no problem beside the price.
Melamine stays white over decades and there is no smell at all, at least with the original Basotect I use.
http://www.soundprooffoam.com/melamine_foam.html


08-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 197
Post ID: 14262
Reply to: 14257
Foaming up the cat house
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote:

"...The Foam Factory do not offer as good prices as I initial thought and the quote price for individual 72” sheet. Thiers prices are similar to anybody else..."

That's surprising... Maybe they've become expensive. Circa 2002 they were by far the best deal I could find; I was able to cover every surface (including the floor) of the 14' x 12' room in the photo a few posts back for about $1500.

"...The problem is not with prices however. The problem is with the fact that the companies that do manufacture white 2“pyramid foam admit that their foam turned brown in a year or two. Some of the companies claims that this white foam stay while but they sock foams in the chemicals that the smell so bad that I will turn brown if I put the foam a in my living room..."

Bear in mind that no foam will remain completely white if you continue smoking Cohibas around it.

"...To buy non-white foam and to paint it sounds to me problematic as well. Painting of foam would clause the foam sells and will reduce the acoustic effectiveness of the foam. Alternative might be dyeing the foam in some kind of hair dye or fabric dye. I do not have experience with dyeing and I need to investigate it..."

I think you're right about not wanting to paint the foam. However, don't waste your time trying to dye it; you might be able to dye it darker (with something like the dye used in artists felt-tip markers for example), but not lighter, as dye by nature is transparent... You might be able to bleach it lighter, but it is unlikely you could get close to even an off-white. I wouldn't attempt any of this.

"...A good option would be to have panels where foam (or whatever) will be encapsulated in a frame and covered by a fine cloth. The problem is that those things need to be made by custom sizes and size I need around 100” of foam it become quote a project. I am still weighing the options..."

This would seem the best option. If you are mainly addressing HF and upper MF, you do not need to buy deep section foam; try a test using thick fiberglass insulation (peel off the paper backing) stapled to a sheet of plywood; if it works, you've saved more than it will cost to build and cover the frames. Attach the fabric to the frames with Velcro so you can throw them in the wash or take them to the dry cleaner. Also, fiberglass does not really burn, but if you use foam, you'll want to invest in a big fire extinguisher; the non-fire-resistant stuff burns only slightly slower than gasoline and the fire-resistant stuff is way expensive.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 198
Post ID: 14266
Reply to: 14214
The ASC Sound Panels.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, I figured that while my midbass horn is being built (the carpenter stared yesterday) I it a good time to lay with HF treatment of my room. I took me sail out –look ugly, lowered the blinds (with expose glass it is pure nightmare) and begin to think want I can do. I had 8 acoustic panels that I bought probably 15 years back. I though then they were by RPS but they turn out to be by ASC. They are very nice looking and I am contemplating to put them on the perimeter of the cathedral ceiling ridge. They are perfect fit for it but I do not like those ASC panels.  ASC cheated in a way making those panels. They would like them to be use in arrays and they made them not too efficient at HF.  They do well on open wall battery arrangement– the subdue fiberglass consumption make them not too dull but in my care, what each pans will work independently I would like to have more effective HF swallower. If to look at absorption coefficientcy of the panels then they peak at 900Hz , I would like to have a panel that would run strong to 5-6K. The ASC panels drop at 2K, too low. I am sure they still will be working at HF and I am still contemplating to use them – they have a good color for my room.

NewRoom_NoWindow.JPG

The cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 199
Post ID: 14272
Reply to: 14266
Hm, I would not say that I hate it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
In fact those ASC panels do not look too obtrusive. How does they impact sound? I do not know yet – will be listening tomorrow.

NewRoom_ASC_1.JPG

NewRoom_ASC_2.JPG

Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 200
Post ID: 14274
Reply to: 14272
Acoustic revisions…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
In fact those ASC panels do not look too obtrusive. How does they impact sound? I do not know yet – will be listening tomorrow....
Ok, I did listen my room laid with perimeter of the ASC panels at the ceiling. It is affective but very little. With the panels is better then with it but it is still a long way to go.  Right now I do have an acceptable MF sound but it is done by adding to the room 11 (eleven) 2 by 5 feet 2 inch thick foam sheets. I would like to add 5-6 more sheets but then the room will be feeling like UPS packing place… Hm..
How ASC TubeTrap effective at HF. I did not look into using then for HF. I have seen use of them as velocity bass traps, and I do not partially like the idea. But can something with column shape to be effective above 2K-3K.

While I was handing my ASC I was shocked how much HF I have behind the speakers. All of it made me to think that the Macondo frame needs to be revised with respect to acoustics behind. At least I will absolutely certainly cover the boxes of Injection Channels with 2” black foam, if I will be able to find it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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