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08-23-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 381
Post ID: 18539
Reply to: 18538
No compromises with Sweet Spot
fiogf49gjkf0d
 noviygera wrote:
Is there a pill for that too? Seriously, it would be very interesting to hear what solution you come up with because I have converted from listening music solo to a small number of audience (friends). So much that I listen by myself much less often. I believe is not possible to make the sweet spot bigger but it is possible to adjust the room acoustics with new surfaces (walls or curved panels), objects, sound absorption and diffusion to make the room sound more balanced and sweet spot be "diffused". 

With directionality of horns it would be interesting to see what approach you use for this and how you treat room surfaces in relation to speaker and listening area location. One may say that there is no point to describe one room and use this as a guide for others, but with horns I believe it is not the case. If we have similar goals (diffusion of sweet spot in room) then certain techniques will take us in similar direction when comes to unfocusing the sound energy.

p.s. kids proofing is not just moving amps "away", believe me I have one year old son. they will pull cables, remove tubes when they cool down, push speakers, and play with turntables. Romy, do not worry about this stage yet because if you do... Trust me, do not worry about this yet.
Gera
Actually I do not look forward to enlarge the size of the Sweet Spot. I personally do not feel that it is possible. The Macondo topology and the type of the horns Macondo use form the Sweet Spot as it is and any further efforts over Sweet Spot might lead to some larger Sweet Spot zone but will degrade what Macondo has been doing well. The larges size of sitting arrangement that I am organizing is not because I am considering making the perfect listening zone larger. In my listening room it will be still the very same optimum relatively narrow Sweet Spot confined to the size of a single chair. This single chair however will be virtual and will be located in the mid sit of 86’ couch. The rest table and chair will be there but they will be very much not optimum listing positions.

In my household it looks like only I care about the proper listening experience.  Amy listening posture is like a monkey on a tree and she sits with her legs up or hanging from palm tree with one hands. I still will have my properly located Sweet Spot and it will be no compromise in it of any kind.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 382
Post ID: 18541
Reply to: 18534
A rare opportunity and Amy’s cute windows
fiogf49gjkf0d
I need to admit that the unfolding now events around the hardwood floors do extend a rare opportunity for me to rethink the playback in my room. I do not have need or reasons to make any significant changes but there are many minor things, perhaps sensible only by me, that I would never do as the playback was settled in the room. The need to remove EVERYTHING from the listening room opened a lot of room for thinking: HOW to put the things back.  I do have some minor organization ideas that I will do different, the ideas that I would never render if I did not start to setup my playback virtually from beginning.  

BTW, the story about glass surfaced that I have on the back wall is kind of found a nice unexpected solution. Amy absolutely hates the soft tube blinds that I had on the windows.  The large windows and the 25 feet sliding doors that I had are directed to south and they are field with sun all time. I am not a big fan of super sunny wall in the house and I always had my acoustically –perfect blind down. Amy killed it; she never let the blinds down and always keeps the windows and doors wide exposed. With all acoustic horror it might cause come another, always balancing discovery.

Amy, as most of the women is into plants. She buys plants and pots in obscene amount and we would be living in some kind of jangle very soon if she not one wonderful quality in Amy. She is absolutely clueless how to care of plants; she does not know that plant needs water and sun. As the result in a few weeks all her plants dies and Amy walks around leafless dead plans and wondering why it was happening. So, we have managed to keep a natural more or less natural balance of plans in house. However, some of the tropical in-house plants that were placed across the southern glass French good did not die and I need to admit that I do like that new to me décor. It makes also a wonderful randomizing acoustic diffuser over the large glass surface. I’m even kind of thinking to get more plans. The monkey and pythons will come next for sure.

The reality is that a combination of life and artificial plants looks like makes a good acoustic grass treatment. Now, during the summer the in-house plants work very nicely with the forest outsell of the house. I guessing it will be different during the winter part of year but we might try to winterize the Amy’s plants with some kind of seasoning decoration….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,644
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 383
Post ID: 18542
Reply to: 18541
Wood Floors and Water
fiogf49gjkf0d
While my Oriental carpets seem to be fairly bomb-proof, wood floors hate to be watered, almost as much as electronics.  Anyway, I recommend some sort of "foolproof" system to keep wood floors apart from plant water.  Since I have never figured this out, please let me know if you come up with something effective that everyone can agree on.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-29-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 384
Post ID: 18552
Reply to: 18541
It is a lot of fun in the end.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I never thought that it will be so much fun to demolish my listening room. Right after the Labor Day my contractor starts to rip up the carpet and lay down the quarter sawn parquet. I will be at Cape during the weekend, so I have preparing the room now. Currently all equipment is gone from the room and it is a very interesting feeling – the empty room is like an empty canvas and it give me a lot of opportunity to rethink the whole setup in my room. Nope I do not mean to change anything as I feel that what I have was optimal. However, I will not harry to put the playback back and will be doing it slowly and a new definition of accuracy, precision, thoughtfulness and prettiness.  I am planning to do some Macondo frame modification and some other minor changes. I am considering refreshing pain on frame and on horns. It probably will take 2-3 weeks to put Macondo and Milq back to the service.  I kind of enjoy this renovation as it will be very final…

Of cause Amy is slowly singing me songs about buying a new home but if she insists on it too hard I probably inform her that I am a gay and hopefully it let me to stay with my listening room. The reality however is very ironic. She did imply that if we ever move then we would custom build a new music/listening room in accordance with my design. Well, honestly I do not know if I have stamina to go over again with what I went with my current room. For now we stay here and I think it will be for good many years. The new version of the room will be very lively and I have my reasons to feel that I will be even more interestingly sonically.

The cAt


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 385
Post ID: 18553
Reply to: 18552
Romy the Cat and WAF?
fiogf49gjkf0d
This concept of having a new listening room not contaminated with playback elements is very interesting. I did not have “living room” with no playback for… many-many years, so I am kind of not accustomed to it. I do not think that I wanted to have living room with no playback. Amy feels the same way and she do like the concept of listening room and the presents of equipment does not look like bothers her. In fact (juts to families with her decorating feelings) I did asked her about her decoration ideas if we have no playback in the room. She clearly felt that playback and musical instruments are very essential to her definition of “comfort”, so I feel no WAF enforcement or any crap like that.

Still, as the room with new parquet will be done I would like to keep it for some time (perhaps a week or two) with no equipment and the equipment that I will be moving into room will be much selected. I would like to make the next reiteration of my playback to have sort of smaller footprint, physically and metaphysically. It is not because my woman wants it (she does not) but because I want it. I still wiling do not compromise the sonic result or expressive ability of my playback but I would like to make it with minimum visible affords. So, I sort of consider hiding some “tools” of my playback and make them less exposed as I would like to minimize the “man cave” appearance of my installation. I do not feel that the “man cave” effect is wrong. I do like that slight “lab” feeling but I kind of getting tired from that that and I would like to make slightly different accent in the feel of my playback.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 386
Post ID: 18555
Reply to: 18553
WAF is for Losers
fiogf49gjkf0d
One of my audiophile Friends did it the only way a real man has to do (he had a HUGE stereo System with 2 big monos and fat cables everywhere in his living room)
He showed that his girlfriend (they married btw.) and said to her:
"You know, what was first here?"
They moved a few times and no matter in what room he made his Set Up, it was ok for her.


Kind Regards
Stitch
08-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 387
Post ID: 18556
Reply to: 18555
WAF: it depends.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
One of my audiophile Friends did it the only way a real man has to do (he had a HUGE stereo System with 2 big monos and fat cables everywhere in his living room)
He showed that his girlfriend (they married btw.) and said to her:
"You know, what was first here?"
They moved a few times and no matter in what room he made his Set Up, it was ok for her.
Well, I am not in position to express option on the WAF front. I think it all depends from given specific circumstances, the priorities of the given people, and not the last: the desert of the people to piss each other. When Amy moved with me I did clearly stated that you can do whatever you wish with the house but the listening room stays as it is. She did exactly that – she changed everything in the house but she was very cautious with listening room. In the end she did made many cosmetic changes in listening room (and she will do more) but we do it not because she like and insist in them but because I find that many of her decorating and nesting directions do attract me. She does not change anything fundamental or essential in listening room. In fact she is very considering and if she does propose something then she does ask me about the acoustic and other consequences. I do not think that she appreciate the playback efforts at the anal-retentive level as I do but it looks like she appreciate my dedication and love of those things and she understands that to play Bruckner ambitiously is not the worst “hobby” a mid age male might have. I do think that she perceives my audio as she perceives her viola.  Playing chamber music and for Boston Philharmonic is just her hobby, something that she loved tremendously and something that she spent half life to learn (Master of Viola from Yale University). She does not do it professionally; she has a full-time job that is not related to music. Still, she feels that to think about me losing my audio is like thinking of her losing her viola….

She was very surprised that in the very beginning of our relationship I though Amy how to use playback and it is true pressure to call home and hear here playing our Bach. I do not see any WAF episodes at all. Am I lucky or we just too short time with Amy to let the WAF syndrome to be developed to the full bloom? I do not know answers but I do not feel that it will be a problem. After I told she how much POD cable cost per feet she did look at miles of the cables in basement and subjected that here is where the payments for daycare are hiding. Ironically it did not upset me by rather entertain me. There is very few things that she says that truly upset me and none of it related to music or audio….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 388
Post ID: 18558
Reply to: 18553
Integration
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, does it not make sense to integrate the speaker and amplifier physically, given they are so tightly integrated conceptually? After all the concept of DSET essentially makes an amplifier bespoke for a speaker, so the only reason for keeping them apart is vibration, which here I imagine you have enough damping to remove as a serious concern. 
08-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 389
Post ID: 18559
Reply to: 18558
Here and there.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, sure, conceptually it would look very interesting to bund drivers and DSET amplification into one entity. I think if I use some kind of SS SET amplification then it would be a good idea to make amplification in the shape of the attachments to the back of the drivers. However, I am not in SS world and the way how Milq and Macondo were born I did not consider integrating them together. I do not think that as now this option is available. Saying that I need to admit that I NEVER have seen any properly made horn loaded installation with intelligently integrated amplification into the horn frame. I think it would be VERY difficult to do and I am not completely convinced if it is the direction I would decide to go if I start from scratch now.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 390
Post ID: 18561
Reply to: 18552
Life after WWIII
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is hard to describe how I feel. Just recently my listening room was cuddly place, cute and homey and today it is like a tornado run over it. The front-end equipment is piled up in Amy’s bedroom, the amps and horn are stuck all over the house, and disconnected cables like poison snakes are running everywhere.  I kind of getting too old for appreciation of those changes and I do feel strongly to hire somebody to put it all back. I would sit in my chair, smoking a cigar and just tell to people what to go… Yeh! Dreamer! I hate to admit that it will be another good month of work to put a system back together

Room_pre_wood_flloor1.JPG

Room_pre_wood_flloor2.JPG

Room_pre_wood_flloor3.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,644
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 391
Post ID: 18562
Reply to: 18561
So, Not Parquet, after all
fiogf49gjkf0d

It's a good sign when an installer introduces un-wrapped flooring to the house well ahead of installation.  And not floating, but glue and/or nail down...

Good luck.

Paul S

09-02-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 392
Post ID: 18564
Reply to: 18561
Cables management.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Considering the employments I would like to make in my installation after the floor will be done and the system is re-assembled I am very much thinking about some kind of new cable management solution. I have 21 powered components in my playback system, 13 line-level analog devises, 6 digital channels, plus USB, cable, monitor cables, commuter cables,  speaker cables (and I have 28 of them(!)), antenna cables,  RPD cables, and many other. As the result I have too many cables that I think “might” be organized better.

I do not want to lay my cable as computer network cable – in the tight lines. I would like to separate the power, AC, DC, and signal passes and I would like to run some cable perpendicular to each other. All of it do create very nice sonic and noise result but it looks a bit too nerdy for the listening room that I would like to have. So, I wonder if anyone tried or have seen somewhere an inelegant cable management solution that provides good functional result but does not look ugly.

Amy of cause would advise to run the cable as I want and then run the liana vines across them. Well, it is not exactly what I have in my mind…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-02-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 393
Post ID: 18565
Reply to: 18564
Featurizing
fiogf49gjkf0d
I must say I have never seen anything off-the-shelf that is not hideous, and so have adapted materials used for other purposes such as heavy copper braid (e.g.  http://www.ormiston-wire.co.uk/products/wire-braid.php ), either raw or blackened with Ebonol C and then some of the surface rubbed off. What cannot be hidden is therefore turned into an interesting object in itself.  
09-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 616
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 394
Post ID: 18585
Reply to: 18537
Kids and tubes cont.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 JJ Triode wrote:
Putting the Pure Power in the basement might be fine, but I don't think you need to banish the Melqs down there, at least not yet.

You don't know yet if there will be kids, and if so it will still be a couple years before one arrives and becomes mobile.  At that time you will need to use a playpen or crib when not actively parenting, as there are plenty of other things in a modern house to keep crawlers and toddlers out of, even without tube amps.  By the time the kid is able to escape from all such confinements, (s)he will be able to understand that some things are off limits and pretty much comply with that.
I had tube gear with grill cages when my son was small, later switched to exposed tubes with no problems.  Remember kids grew up for millennia with open fireplaces and few ever burned up.  They have survival instincts that understand heat very well.  Electrical shock is a different matter but that would require pulling out a hot tube which is not so easy.

Rgs,
JJ


From my experience (I have a 5yrs old daughter), the most dangerous period is when the baby starts to crawl with the apogeum being when it starts to walk. The risk or running agains the amp and falling over it is very big--this is a random process Smile even when the baby knows that the tubes are hot and one should not come close. What's even worse is falling against the amp with a cup of milk/water/juice and spilling it over the amp/preamp etc...I would not trust even an older kid of 7-8yrs in this respect. incorporation of tubbed equipment is a real challenge!
 



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
09-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 395
Post ID: 18586
Reply to: 18585
Kid magnet
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just put a few fake silk dome tweeters out there; the kid will go straight for them and leave everything else untouched.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
09-06-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 34
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 396
Post ID: 18587
Reply to: 18586
Kids and audio
fiogf49gjkf0d
I can guarantee that a pair of ATC 15" woofers with the fragile foam surround and some unobtanium Siemens Klangfilm 8" units are even more alluring.

Kris
09-06-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 616
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 397
Post ID: 18588
Reply to: 18587
Radars
fiogf49gjkf0d
These are all soft scenarios, where only an audio eq. is hurt...

I'm quite convinced that kids have an absolutely phenomenal and perfectly calibrated
sort of a radar which unmisteakably catches the things that we care about
and directs the kid straight towards that thing. We must be sending subconsciously
very readable signals of what we care about and those signals are immediatelly caught.
I've been trying many times to find out how I emitt those signals and supress
or mask them (either keeping the mind in a meditative relaxation of fakely directing attention/affiction/etc
towards other stuff...a fridge)....no way! Even if it works, after some practice, then ony for some period
of time. Later you relax and start sending those signals agian...



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
09-10-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 398
Post ID: 18592
Reply to: 18561
Wow, what the days!
fiogf49gjkf0d

There were had few days. First it was complete distraction of my listening room, than the contractors put the new hardwood floor together and then the complete rebuilding of the listening room, back to the sate it was before. Well sort of…

The demolition of the room was fine, it was almost fan. The new floor turned to be a great and in a way unexpected success. The room does look cuter without carpet. I gig not push for the hardwood floor it was pulley Amy’s wish but as the project complete I need to admit that she was right – the room feels cleaner, more dressy, more elegant and to a degree it feels bigger. We use satin water-base finish and the mile sine on the floor give to room more space. The floor feels much harder in trim of vibration propagation. The subfloor was two layer of plywood and now it added ¾ inch of oak – it does feel more stable. We rebuild the LP storage, problem 4K of records right in the room and it that added some mass loading in the room.

I brought the equipment back to the room, nothing is connected for now. It will take I think a week of two to reconnect and recalibrate everything and here is the biggest and the most complex part of the project will be. You seem the new room will not only future the hardwood floor but it will be slightly deferent room all together. Before, I was a room where considerations of sonic requirements were prevailing and the room was built to please myself only. It is not that the room had a feeling of test lab. It had some nerdy influence but it was reflecting myself only. The new version of room will be built to accommodate Amy and me and it will be slightly different twist. Amy and I have different perception of esthetics and comfort. She is a New England girl with her tendency to strive for New England decoration pattern. It is not what I have in me but I do not object it, not to mention that she has better developed taste in décor. I generally like what she does with our house and I let her to run the decorating pursuit. So, with Amy in the picture the listening room wills future hardwood floor, Bukhara rags, copper pots, plants, living-room style furniture and the rest idiosyncrasy that comes with females as package.  It is not however as bad as it sounds.

Amy is very respectful to need to have the listening room to sound good and she is very considered to my needs, the décor needs at least. So, I am trying to implement whatever she want but organically factor everything in into my sonic interests. So, as now were are working to re-think the arrangement of the room that will have Ficus plants and Donunic cable in the same confined space. The biggest problem as now is location of Macondo. I do not have a judgment what I will put the stuck of the Macondo horns. I do not think that it will be at the previous position. The previous position was the best possible in the room but with new reflective acoustic patter of the room it might not the case anymore. We removed the entrance door from the listening room, knocked two walls, introduced a wall long floor to ceiling LP shelving, change the floor, introduced large plants at the glass windows, introduced a room long book case under the ceilings, bought new furniture that will be sit at the new collations, charge the fist reflection surfaces from the location where Macondo was sitting (there was no wall anymore and another was is changed). So, all my finding about the best location of Macondo before might not be valid, in fact I am convinced that they will be invalid. I need to find a new location for Macondo.

For sure I cannot explain to Amy the criticality of the Mocodno positioning but in the good side she will embrace any new location I will chose. I think that as now Mocodno channels will be able to work slightly wider. The best thing is that now Mocodno might be easily slide across the floor and the gateway to the DPoLS is wide open. I think the final location will be approximately within 2-3 foot from where Macondo was sitting before, of cause I will be able to say anything more on the subject after I connect Macondo and will make my hand dirty with new sound of the room.

Anyhow, it will be time-consuming but in a way exciting next 2-3 weeks.

Rgsm the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 399
Post ID: 18594
Reply to: 18592
The comming weekend
fiogf49gjkf0d
This weekend I will eventually setup the playback back to the operational state. It has been for 2 weeks and I am not playing my Bruckner on the big system and I kind of missing it. I am still not at ease with the new speaker positioning. Amy wants to move Macondo a bit closer to the wall as she wants to have her rug to be more visible. I do not object it but I predict that it will affect imaging negatively. I very much look forward to hear Macondo it again and to see how it will go.

For now I am fighting with a new light pattern in the listening room. That is whole another story…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-17-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,132
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 400
Post ID: 18622
Reply to: 18594
It all was worth it!
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I have set up the right channel. Not calibrated but juts connected everything and did initial phasing. God! I have missed that feeling and I did not have it for a month! I know all of those conversation about having fun from a table radio – that all is fine but as the full bloom Macondo kicks in, even with one channel, it is very different experience and I do love it. Last two day I was working with equipment, punched the holes in the floor and did the rest work. While I did it I was playing Brahms from Amy’s iPad via her Bose radio. There was nothing wrong, Brahms Second still was Brahms Second. But today I put it all with together, lit my sugar,  sat at comfy clear on porch and had the true quality time that I was missing for a while. The ULF is not connected yet and only midbass horn is operational but I am telling you  - that it all BS audio that we are playing all was worth it just for the evening I’m spending today…. I can’t weight when the second channel and ULF will be in place and what we will be able to play out Bruckner…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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