drdna wrote:

I appreciate the suggestions on the ceiling of the room; in my room the ceiling is about twelve feet tall and it opens on the side to another room with a taller skylight, so I do not know if this is a problem or not.  It may be worth investigating? Also, I have tried many many kinds of wire in my system and I agree that the sound of silver is very distinctive -- I also can easily tell if I change a small piece of silver or copper wire in my system.  I have found that silver gives a very wonderful realism to the upper midrange and highs, but this is at the expense of the lower midrange which is kind of dulled and sucked out and I expect this is why Romy hates it so.  This seems much better when you are using a very fine silver foil, at least to my ears, but it is never the full, richer sound of the copper, but the copper is not as immediate-sounding as the silver to me either in the very upper midrange, so I think this is really a trade-off. Maybe this is part of my problem with the EdgarHorn Titans however because the wire Bruce Edgar has inside the speakers looks like steel or copper coated with steel or silver (anyway it is a silvery-colored metal) and it is multi-stranded.  Everywhere else in my system I have only solid-core ultra-fine gauge wire, including the insides of all my equipment and my old speakers which I re-wired.  So perhaps this is part of the reason the "magic" is missing.  After I figure out how to make these speakers disappear, perhaps next I should examine re-wiring the speakers?

I’m not kidding: all those things that we talking this there is irrelevant in your case and I would like you do not distract yourself on the irrelevant directions: cables, room treatment and etc. They all are important things but the problem that you describe is more basic then all little things. I usually suggest to people to install this system using the Radio Shock interconnect and the regular zip cords. Make it sound goon and THEN take advantage of better cabling and complicated room acoustic alternations. Your EdgarHorn, or any other speaker at this respect, should do fine bust being dropped at the floor and properly positioned. I have seen phenomenally perfuming sound coming from absolutely random systems in absolutely random condition where the speakers were installed properly. In smaller rooms those correct speakers positioning always exist. Phase-align your drivers and you should be fine. The "disappearing” trip is VERY simple trick for loudspeakers and it should not be a problem.

BTW, there is one more tip. Bruce Edgar bushtits his customers making them belie that his horns should be used next to the back wall and at far field. Whatever reasons motivate I am sure his customers deserved to be bul***ed. In reality horns are way more sensitive to any boundaries and partially to the back walls then common people usually believe. The horns must sit quite far form the walls, the further the better and partially the horn that use a dedicated direct radiator upper-bass horn. I would estimate then if you have 80Hz Edgar horn then the minimum distance from the horn to the walls should be 5”-6”. It is certainly not an absolute rule but what I have seen that is the upperbass horn (if it was not a boundary loaded, as if is was then they have other problems) is acoustically connected to the walls then ....you WILL NOT have a good upper mid range transient and your sound will be at the upper mid range with no contrast.

The caT

Romy the Cat wrote:

...I would like you do not distract yourself on the irrelevant directions: cables, room treatment and etc. They all are important things but the problem that you describe is more basic then all little things... ...Bruce Edgar bushtits his customers making them belie that his horns should be used next to the back wall and at far field... The horns must sit quite far form the walls, the further the better and partially the horn that use a dedicated direct radiator upper-bass horn. I would estimate then if you have 80Hz Edgar horn then the minimum distance from the horn to the walls should be 5”-6”...

drdna wrote:

Looking again at the EdgarHorns, the placement in the room seems nearly optimal and they are now properly time aligned.  Looking at the phase of the individual drivers and listening to each of them individually revealed that the tweeter was wired out of phase and the midrange and woofer were wired out of absolute phase.

Adrian, I am glad that you resolved you dilemma. Considering the problem you described, it was pretty much, where I expected it to be. However your explanations are kind of sound strange to me. If your tweeter were out of phase with the rest of the drivers then it would not produce the problem you portrayed. Reversing polarity of the tweeter, even with second order filter, dose has some negative consequences but the do not manifest themselves in a way your explanations were. Most likely you had one of the MF or upper bass drive out of phase and doing your experiments you accidentally put in a correct polarity. It has nothing to do with the tweeters. Also, “listening to each of driver individually” you would not be able to get the drivers’ polarity (not to mention that the “absolute phase” has nothing to do with your case at all. The co-phaseinass of the drivers might be objectively detected by a $100 worth phase tested that I literally demand to buy any person who is wiling to talk with me about horns. An alternative way would be a run a dual-channels mono in-phase sweep and to monitor the center image….

drdna wrote:

Correcting this changed the sound from very good to stunning.  The speakers now disappear in the room and the sound is the best I have ever heard from a stereo.  Really wonderful to listen to, now!

Hm… I do not know how about the “stunning”. So far they juts “disappear in the room”. That is, as I previously said not a big deal and itself doe not signify anything.

drdna wrote:

I understand why the previous owner traded these in for Cain & Cain horns; because the EdgarHorns were wired wrong!  I am amazed this could happen by a small manufacturer like Bruce Edgar who seems to take a lot of care about his products.

It has nothing to do with Bruce Edgar and his sweatshop. The problem is YOU. You should stop to extend any credit to audio audiophile and treat all of them by default as a potential cretin unless they prove you otherwise. This is what I call the Presumption of Moronity ™, something that I employ for year and something that give me a phenomenal detecting rate among the audio hoodlums. It is obvious that the previous owner of your speakers was a Moron. You told that you brought a bunch of audio hoodlums to listen your phase-screwed Edgarhorns and “everyone who hears my system says it is the best thing ever and they are totally amazed and saying it sounds so lifelike”. Dose it say anything to you about the quality of this listening intelligence and the level moronity of this audio perception? Anyhow, do not be disappointed. The very same garbage sound that you had have 99% of all audio Morons ™ out there.  BTW, if you look at the “expert” on-line comments of that fool who sold you the speakers the you will see that he know among audio constituencies as “experienced audiophile” - within many internet sites you would find piles of morons similar to him…

drdna wrote:

But comparing to the sound of live music, it is still slightly blunted and like everything is stuck in the mud, so it gets a bit confused especially with orchestral music and begins to lose the living presence, although with small ensemble work the sound is very much lifelike and I can easily forget I am listening to stereo at times.

This is very different subject and I would requite you to describe it deeper to figure out what frustrate you now. Do not forget that the Edgar’s horns have thier own intrinsic limitation rounded by the very primitive demands level of the target customers.

drdna wrote:

Next I think it will be appropriate to look at the level of the lower midrange horn and to consider rewiring the insides with good solid core wire (it is all Litz copper wire now). Does this sound reasonable as a next step?

Absolutely not! I wound live the damn wiring alone. Unless you enjoy the process of changing them…

The Cat

Romy the Cat wrote:

Considering the problem you described, it was pretty much, where I expected it to be. However your explanations are kind of sound strange to me. If your tweeter were out of phase with the rest of the drivers then it would not produce the problem you portrayed.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Also, “listening to each of driver individually” you would not be able to get the drivers’ polarity (not to mention that the “absolute phase” has nothing to do with your case at all.

Romy the Cat wrote:

The co-phaseinass of the drivers might be objectively detected by a $100 worth phase tested that I literally demand to buy any person who is wiling to talk with me about horns. An alternative way would be a run a dual-channels mono in-phase sweep and to monitor the center image….

Romy the Cat wrote:

You should stop to extend any credit to audio audiophile and treat all of them by default as a potential cretin unless they prove you otherwise. This is what I call the Presumption of Moronity ™

Romy the Cat wrote:

This is very different subject and I would requite you to describe it deeper to figure out what frustrate you now.

drdna wrote:

I have found the next obvious glaring problem, which is contributing to the muddy sound I described earlier.  There is a mismatch between the two channels.  The right channel is very slightly softer than the left with a very slight change in the sound like it is vaguely from an old-fashioned radio, but very subtle.  I tested this by listening with a mono signal to each channel one at a time.  I can tell this from anywhere I stand, far away or with my ear right next to the speakers (so I do not think this is a room acoustics effect). I found that the same signal from the same RCA output on the preamplifier through the same wire would make this different sound going to the right amplifier and speaker than going to the left amplifier and speaker. So I switched the amplifiers and there was no difference. Then I switched the speaker cable and there was no difference. Then I switched the speakers and there was still no difference. Then I became very confused and decided to see if you have any sugestions?

The line level devised usesly more or less stable and mostly likely the deviation of gain in power amplifier usesly the problems. Another common problem is that the crossovers in right and the left channel are not bult identically…. Still you clamed that you switched speakers and amplifiers and did not detect any differents… Well, if I would knot how exactly the problem of “softness” manifest itself perhaps I might suggest something. Meanwhile, I have seen before how the specific magnetic fields might quite adhesively after what speakers do. I do not know the EdgarHorns crossover. I do not think they should be “serious” and I doubt that he tune then individually for each driver type. Still in his upper bass horn he most likely used a coil to low pass the channel. Most likely he use a second order with tweeter, which would demand coils. The make the EdgarHorns having 4 coils (+ MF and HF voice coils). During the operation of the drivers, and particularly of the air core coils were use in crossovers and if the speaker sit in a magnetic filed, the inductance of the drivers, coils talks to each other and produce quite auditable results…. Do not forget that you are in high sensitively work and with 110dB you have why should be able to pick your local AM station on your coils if you position them properly….

A few years ago I use 3 and something Henrys air-core coil made up with… 8ga wire. It was a barrel of cupper that acted like a sponge for any airborne dirt. I have in one side of my room (what right speaker lives) something that I called “Area 51”. At tie location (approximately 3’x3’) any coil suck in EMI from air with a force of a mid size back hole. If I positioned the coil in there then by changing the angle of the coil I was able to change sound quite tangibly. I did not measure the Gausses in there but I know what was going on and I ended up building sarcophagus for the right speakers crossover. I used CO-NETIC alloys for that reportedly has magnetic shielding 800 times stronger then steal of the same thickens. It worked very nice with exception that all of those Magnetic Shield Corporation’s products are quite expansive…

Well, something suggests me that you might have the very same problem. In fact may people with high sensitively drivers have then but not a lot of them have ability to understand or detect it as thier noisy and dirtily electronics mask out the effect of environmental magnetic influence…

Rgs,
The caT

Romy the Cat wrote:

A few years ago I use 3 and something Henrys air-core coil made up with… 8ga wire. It was a barrel of cupper that acted like a sponge for any airborne dirt. I have in one side of my room (what right speaker lives) something that I called “Area 51”. At tie location (approximately 3’x3’) any coil suck in EMI from air with a force of a mid size back hole. If I positioned the coil in there then by changing the angle of the coil I was able to change sound quite tangibly. I did not measure the Gausses in there but I know what was going on and I ended up building sarcophagus for the right speakers crossover. I used CO-NETIC alloys for that reportedly has magnetic shielding 800 times stronger then steal of the same thickens. It worked very nice with exception that all of those Magnetic Shield Corporation’s products are quite expansive… Well, something suggests me that you might have the very same problem. In fact may people with high sensitively drivers have then but not a lot of them have ability to understand or detect it as thier noisy and dirtily electronics mask out the effect of environmental magnetic influence… Rgs, The caT

I am interested to find out more information about how DEQX will help solve my issues with getting better soundstage, imaging and depth with the Edgarhorn Titans.  I read some reviews from the DEQX website and sent them an email but still waiting for more information.  Will the DEQX help or is soundstage and imaging an inherrent problem with horn speakers?
I recently listened to Magnepan's 1.7's and the soundstage and imaging were quite apparent compared to the Edgarhorns.  You are surrounded by the music whereas with the horn speakers this effect is somewhat achieved only with near-field listening.
The current model DEQX HD Express and Reference Calibration Kit is nearly $3k plus it is my understanding that if you want the DEQX to do the crossovers I would need separate amps for each driver.  This will complicate the setup with way too much equipment.
Are there any mods (for the speakers) that I should look into before going the DEQX route?
Thanks,
Marc 

Thanks, Scooter.
I am glad to hear from someone so quickly.
I've been an "audiophile" for only 10 years or so.  With the Edgarhorns, I am currently using a Cyrus Brenneman integrated amp (KT100).  I also have a Yamamoto custom 2A3 (single plates) which I also like.
As for audio problems, you are correct, I really have to sit back and think about what to do.  Sure I want to improve what is now lacking.... soundstage, imaging and depth.  As for the sound, of course, I like the sound of horns but I have to sit in a precise spot (i.e not move my head) to get decent soundstage and imaging. Can I afford to spend more time and money to experiment with crossovers, digital EQ and other voodoo components (Z sleeves, ionizer, crystals, sound traps, super tweeters, Be diaphragms, Bybee filters, silver fuses, etc.... I have these) or have I reached the point where I should move back to solid state and Magnepan 3.7's.  I want to keep things simple.  I will search this site for more information (about digital EQ and other avenues related to horn speakers) and hope to gain some insight as to how far I want to take this.
Marc

slack key wrote:

As for audio problems, you are correct, I really have to sit back and think about what to do.  Sure I want to improve what is now lacking.... soundstage, imaging and depth.  As for the sound, of course, I like the sound of horns but I have to sit in a precise spot (i.e not move my head) to get decent soundstage and imaging. Can I afford to spend more time and money to experiment with crossovers, digital EQ and other voodoo components (Z sleeves, ionizer, crystals, sound traps, super tweeters, Be diaphragms, Bybee filters, silver fuses, etc.... I have these) or have I reached the point where I should move back to solid state and Magnepan 3.7's.  I want to keep things simple.  I will search this site for more information (about digital EQ and other avenues related to horn speakers) and hope to gain some insight as to how far I want to take this.

You will not find any useful information about digital EQ at this site. If you would like to play stupid games with DSP phase faking in order to get “more stereo” than you can bit it has nothing to do with digital EQ. BTW, digital EQ is not “other avenues related to horn speakers” but rather the refuge of horn speaker’s bottom eaters.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=775#775

slack key wrote:

I am interested to find out more information about how DEQX will help solve my issues with getting better soundstage, imaging and depth with the Edgarhorn Titans.

It is wonderful how these forums work and how it's members provide the feedback and comments from their experiences and expertise.
I am 90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound that I am looking for with the Edgarhorns.  If it does to some degree it will probably degrade or even kill the "horn" sound (that disappeared in Jorge's DEQX setup). 
I think it's about time that I check the crossovers in my speakers... to make sure they are correct.  They sound ok to me but may be confusing to someone with keen hearing.  I remember I was told to disconnect a capacitor to the tweeter when I changed from the Fane to JBL 075's.  Does anyone know of a stereo engineer that can propose a schematic crossover design for the drivers that is being used?  Am I making any sense?

Bud wrote:

You need to find an individual who can design series crossovers. Both JBL and Altec used these, because they sounded best. You will need to look for an individual near where you live because they will have to test the drivers as the design progresses. You can of course utilize a parallel crossover, but a significant improvement in all categories will only come from a full series design. If you lived near Seattle I could put you in touch with a master.

slack key wrote:

It is wonderful how these forums work and how it's members provide the feedback and comments from their experiences and expertise. I am 90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound that I am looking for with the Edgarhorns.  If it does to some degree it will probably degrade or even kill the "horn" sound (that disappeared in Jorge's DEQX setup).  I think it's about time that I check the crossovers in my speakers... to make sure they are correct.  They sound ok to me but may be confusing to someone with keen hearing.  I remember I was told to disconnect a capacitor to the tweeter when I changed from the Fane to JBL 075's.  Does anyone know of a stereo engineer that can propose a schematic crossover design for the drivers that is being used?  Am I making any sense?

Sorry, slack but your commentaries sound not like “lesson learned”. Why are your suddenly “90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound”? Because somebody in polite manner told you about their own negative experience with this specific brand of digital EQ. What do you know about those people, their playback and cultural objectives, their reference points? Did you asked any questions that would give you indication where they are coming from? Do you understand the reasons why they do not like it? I did not ask you if you rent DEQX for a day in your local pro shop and try it yourself – it would be too much to ask I guess… So, there were two random people who said to you “no-no” and you turned away.  I can give you another 23407 random people from the same internet who adore digital crossover and this playback systems are way more expensive and much “positively reviewed” then what Jorge or Adrian have. The point that I am trying to make is that so far your interest on the subject is so shallow and so artificial that the “lessons you learned” are not the lessons but the empty words that you just heard with your side hearing and for whatever reasons you decided to declare them as your “90% convictions”. I very much do not attack you personally as most of the idiots on internet would think. I just try to separate politeness to a person and a respect to the subject of the person’s interest. I do not defense or assault digital crossovers for you. But I do try to maintain the context at this site at certain level of reasons, the level that I do not see in your inquiry.

slack key wrote:

I know that speaker position and room acoustics are important.  I use a laser to align the speakers, room treatments, hallographs, crystals, ionizer, Z-sleeves, bybee filters, etc.  I also have power conditioners, installed dedicated electric panel with thick gauge copper wires.  I use high end cables throughout from power to interconnects to speakers.