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Home » Didital Things » The High Resolution PCM files business, where? (32 posts, 2 pages)

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	About digital files and definition of “masters”...	HD or not HD...	Didital Things Forum	4	49194	04-09-2008
»	New	Analog vs. Digital... without BS...	Are we comparing anything except our own prejudices?...	Didital Things Forum	23	206137	04-15-2009
»	New	New sample 24/96 downloads from HDTT..	Or shall I say will you bat?...	Didital Things Forum	20	176553	02-10-2008
»	New	Reel-to-Reel Tape vs. Raw Better Digital..	So, the "format" and sub-generational stages/...	Didital Things Forum	13	197142	11-16-2007
»	New	Chesky Records went "raw files"...	Chesky Records went "raw files"....	Didital Things Forum	0	22344	04-16-2009
»	New	The BSO and Digital Music...	Around the BSO recording practice....	Didital Things Forum	44	370601	12-02-2008
»	New	The optimum Sampling Rate for bass...	Lynx can handle up to 200.000Khz...	Didital Things Forum	3	48374	02-19-2008
»	New	A need for Resolution /Sampling Assessment Test..	Well, we kind of 'have' a file Virginity Assessment Tes...	Didital Things Forum	1	31619	10-06-2009
»	New	A lucidly implemented digital?..	A lucidly implemented digital?...	Didital Things Forum	0	20458	11-18-2008
»	New	Bravo Brahms, Bravo Wand, Bravo Sony!!!..	What Was That Number You Wanted, Again?...	Didital Things Forum	3	48094	03-21-2011
»	New	To buy an SACD Player?..	Cheap sacd players...	Didital Things Forum	7	69690	04-02-2012

03-23-2014

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 461
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	21
Post ID:	20668
Reply to:	20663

Ingnorance is bliss?

I think that I understand how HDTracks works. Their customer base purchases on the assumption that they are getting better than normal resolution. Their customer base does not understand what resolution means for sound, but they believe that sound is better with better numbers. Then comes the big bad critic and not by LISTENING, rather by looking at a spectral analysis determines that HD is not HD.

Two things happen: The bubble is burst for the audiophile that didn't HEAR that his HD was only resampled MP3 and the critic does not even put the situation into musical context, rather rejoices in having found something that the "competition" did not.

The rest is predictable. Many/most continue to buy because HD is part of the name. This is primarly due to the very meaning of HD - Hearing Deteriorated.........

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

05-22-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	22
Post ID:	20873
Reply to:	11863

Bravo!

http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/dsd-downloads-double-speak-by-sony/

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-23-2014

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steverino
Posts 389
Joined on 05-22-2009

Post #:	23
Post ID:	20877
Reply to:	20873

An article any of us would have written but how refreshing from the audiophile press

I agree that that article was one of the few that I would have been happy to affix "Steverino" to. I know that Romy has minimum high regard for SACD and I am not particularly keen on it myself. But since I only have about 75 CDs/SACDs I have never seen the logic of getting the type of CD player that Romy has. However, I must say that the only SACDs that impressed me as recognizably superior to the CD/DVD regardless of mastering quality were the Abkco Rolling Stones SACD hybrids. Lord help me but those actually had some transients that analog would be hard pressed to capture despite their odd soundstage. Of course CD doesn't even bother trying to capture transients and is happiest with test tones of seven seconds each. Anyway I have found with the more lowly CD and SACD players I am consigned to that the ones with true DSD output stages do sound better than players with hirez PCM conversion output stages. Not mega better but noticeably better.

05-23-2014

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,795
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	24
Post ID:	20878
Reply to:	20877

Transients

I am checking now a "redbook" Mahler CD that I have that should "change your mind", if you have the digital chain to unleash it. OK, it is Mahler 3 by the Westdeutscher Rundfunk Synfoniorhcester, Koln, under Semyon Bychknov. Try this and hear what you think about CD "transients", etc. No, this is not a typical redbook CD. But I have to say, I have other, bigger problems than "transients" with CD. Of course, I have fewer than 100 CDs, I think, but I do plan to get more Bruckner on CD, since this is where one finds the Bruckner programs, apparently, and... it's all about program.

As for SACD, I have already tipped my hand on this; I have not yet heard the good examples, although I try again every time it comes up. I am so confused by SACD that I "planned around it", meaning, I could not play it on my main system now if I wanted to; by careful design I have only straight redbook digital "capabilities", from end to end. Again, my present mental picture of the SACD is the vivid water color that someone pulls fingers through before it dries.

Best regards,
Paul S

05-23-2014

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steverino
Posts 389
Joined on 05-22-2009

Post #:	25
Post ID:	20879
Reply to:	20878

Getting my mind right

Paul,

I think we mean different things by transients. By my definition, there is no correlation with dynamics or volume. There are transients in the softest sounds as well as the loudest. A transient is merely the onset or initiation of a musical note or sound. If one analyzes a note produced by an instrument, it has many brief noise and harmonic components fluctuating together at onset before it settles down in its sustained segment (however extended or briefly it is sustained). Listen carefully to solo or small ensembles and chart how the initiation of a note on CD is either somewhat vague or is distorted, sounding more like a synthesizer than the instrument. Once the note stabilizes however the sound becomes more typical of the instrument and has fairly good fidelity to it. Organ music is best suited to CD because of the high proportion of time devoted to sustained notes vs transients. The rapidity of the changes going on in the onset portion of the sound are too rapid for CD PCM to handle them accurately. I think on the evidence of a few SACDs I've encountered that some kind of improved DSD format along the lines of what Romy heard years ago should have sufficiently fast sampling to capture the transients very accurately.

I should add that psychoacoustical studies have shown that the character of the onset or formant segment is what gives instruments much of their characteristic sound and individuality. It also helps the ear pick out multiple instruments playing ensemble.

05-24-2014

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steverino
Posts 389
Joined on 05-22-2009

Post #:	26
Post ID:	20880
Reply to:	11914

Don't examine Pristine too closely

Romy the Cat wrote:
The Brits Pristine “eventually” heard my call. A few years back I begged them to sell the raw 24-bit masters bit not the 16/44 releases, as the down conversion below 20 bit kills too much of sound. It looks like nowadays they get smarter and make 24 bit available:
http://www.pristineclassical.com/More/DownloadFormats.html
Unfortunately they do not make the raw 24-bit file available. They heavily process the files with their in house “restoration ceremony” and make the 24-bit after ceremony masters available. It is MUCH better then what they use to do porting this music to 16 bit on crapy CDs. Stull, I would like to get the raw 24-bit file BEFORE they do the mastering. It shall be my decision if I prefer their “mastering “and I do not what anybody makes this decision for me.
The Cat

I didn't notice Romy's reference of Pristine Classical. I had an "interesting" encounter with them via their "hirez" manipulations of Furtwangler's RAI Ring cycle recordings from EMI. They were of course deliriously recommended on Amazon so I went to their site to listen. If I had an MP3 player their various sound files might have been OK but each was dramatically inferior to the old LPs. I investigated further what they were doing and determined that all their various versions were sourced from needledrops of - you guessed it - the 1970s LP issue of the Furtwangler Ring on EMI. One set of encodings and probably the least bad were the straight mono files derived from the needledrops. The worst were the ones most loudly praised of course; namely, a "stereo" version. This was a slightly more sophisticated version of the old electronic stereo process combined with some sort of treble brightening to simulate a bit of treble air. Of course the sounds of the instruments became even more artificial sounding than with the mono needledrop version. I would have to assume that all of their sources are equally questionable unless they provide independent documentation to the contrary.

05-24-2014

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,795
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	27
Post ID:	20881
Reply to:	20879

Agreed

Steve, now that I understand your idea of "transients" here, I simply agree, of course. I always thought of this as part of a "time" problem that is +/- endemic to digital; it can't "breathe" to "make space" for the properly complex "inflections". But then, I have only listened to the "hi-res" music via systems other than my own, and never via one I would personally "approve" of, so, basically nothing to say on that score. Like I've shared before, I have heard an "uncorrupted" WAV file via my system, and nothing good to report there, either, but who knows why, so no judgment there, either, except I'm still not looking for new digital gear yet. For now, I will listen to redbook CD for the Music, if that's where it is, but I still avoid the SACD, based on any and all renderings I have heard from it to date. But I guess I'm way behind the curve in terms of correlating sonics to sampling rates, per se, eg., faster means better sound.

I still recommend that CD...

Best regards,
Paul S

05-24-2014

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steverino
Posts 389
Joined on 05-22-2009

Post #:	28
Post ID:	20882
Reply to:	20881

Sure

I'll look for that CD. There are some Bychkov concert performances in the archives of the Berlin Phil Digital Concert Hall that can be accessed for a modest fee. I thought the sonic quality was rather good allowing for the occasional dropout etc.

As for high sampling rate digital, again I think the issue is mostly in capturing the note onsets accurately. If that is done I think the reflected sound may be captured more accurately too. I have never heard a PCM process do that so it's not sampling rate per se. I may be kidding myself but I think some much improved DSD format or more probably 2xDSD or 4xDSD could succeed. Given what is happening in audio however who is going to do the necessary research to develop and implement it? I just don't see it happening. Thus, the expensive security system guarding my LP collection.

05-24-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	29
Post ID:	20883
Reply to:	20880

Fuck the Pristine

Steverino, Pristine Classical is a atrocious company, not only because they do horrible sound quality or because their bossiness is set on fraud but because the company is being run by appalling asshole – Andrew Rose - another “typical audio professional”. What they do and who he is beyond the words to describe it.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-24-2014

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steverino
Posts 389
Joined on 05-22-2009

Post #:	30
Post ID:	20884
Reply to:	20883

Fraud and borderline personalities

I could forgive Mr Rose his personality defects if he was producing soundfiles of some distinction rather than just doing 24/192 needledrops. The scary thing is that his patrons contend that these concoctions are the equal of using the mastertape. As in my posts above, I think there could be some digital conversion process developed that would be far more transparent and accurate than what we have now but the direction is all the other way. I think someone doing 24/192k of a mp3 file subjected to extra dynamic compression and run through a cassette deck is far more likely.

BTW thanks for linking that Ultrahigh end site. I never heard of Mr Berryman but he seems like the lone voice in the wilderness of the audio zines. I hope he is independently wealthy because he will be frozen out I assume. Maybe he already is since the equipment reviews are almost all links to other people's reviews. I can't imagine anyone sending him music CDs/vinyl to review either. This whole high sampling rate download business is really becoming not simply a fraud, but a blatant sneering fraud. Whatever one thinks of the Cheskys etc at least they all made some attempt, successful or not, to produce or promote better sounding remasterings in the past. At this point they have thrown all that aside and are defending the indefensible. Once this collapses, it is going to be very hard to pick up the pieces and move forward.

05-25-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	31
Post ID:	20890
Reply to:	20884

Did I tell that I am a humanist?

In case Andrew Rose from Pristine there is no borderline personality or fraudulent intend. I have been pitching it for years that ANY audio industry “professional” is disqualifies to be evaluated on human scale of psychological disorders. An audio industry person is not a mammal but a completely different class of semi-human species that occupies a completely different position in darwinian propagation of biological evolution. Any audio industry person is a missing link between a cockroach and skunk’s defecation. I wish humanly crate a vaccine ageist all of that near human waste right along with their missing links.

I think 10-12 years back Andrew Rose sold one Bruckner recording that I was interested. His “mastering” was always horrible but this recording was not available anywhere else. At that time he was running his recording via some kind of DSP algorithm that predicted how this 78 would sound if it was full range recording. The result was atrocious but if you are a missing link between cockroach and animal crap they you have no way to sense it. So, at some kind of musical forum where Andrew Rose was selling his CDs I asked if it was possible to buy the CD recording with his house processing. Andrew Rose was very surprise and asked why to what I replied that I find that his DSP “full range reconstruction” is necessary as a concept and very sonically damaging by nature. As an illustration I posted a link to Pristine site where there was publicly presented two files: before and after processing. Juts listening those two files, even over a computer, was even laughable to compare the files and one sound as a normal vintage 78 sound and another sounded like a tacky revolting sonic hallucination. In response Andrew Rose informed all public at this forum that for years I have been stacking him, harassing his business and his personally, in internet and in actual life and that he is about to get a restrain order against me. That was enough for the site’s local crowd to be convicted that his in-house mastering is better then original. The funny part that in response I have posted at that forum all 4 emails conversation I even had with him what I very cordially asked about 24 bit master files. There was no further discussion between us and two other emails was from Andrew Rose to me where he compliment my Turntable. That was it and it was not truly harassing of any kind but those industry dirt love to sell to each other a concept that anyone who do not kiss them in ass are ether Nazi of psychologically disturbed.

So, I will be very happy if Andrew Rose would die from kind of deadly illness but I only wish that it would be slow and very painful. An electric chair or an injection of lethal injection for that level of human waste is to unethical mean to clean the planet.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-25-2014

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steverino
Posts 389
Joined on 05-22-2009

Post #:	32
Post ID:	20897
Reply to:	20890

Really bad

Yeah, that is low life for sure but that kind of takedown is becoming more common. People are copying the politicos (of all types and persuasions). If they can't give a memorized answer or it jars one of their buzz phrases they feel free to slime you to get you out of the way. The more that audio regresses and the market shrinks, the more vicious the audio faux-mavens will behave. However, based on the verbiage on the music sites, I would say this is a lost cause. People really do think that Pristine's fake "ambient stereo" is a vast improvement over LPs, CDs and SACDs. It is like making a mix for a SS AM transistor radio which may sound better for that and worse for anything else. We need to bear in mind that the fidelity of most people's systems is getting worse not better, not to mention the increasing manipulations and degradations of the mastering process (with the latest kerfuffle now with new "improved" Itunes mastering). There is increasing dynamic compression (loudness) on many classical reissues, let alone pop material. Headphones may end up as the last bastion of decent sound despite the oddities of such a presentation. For 3k-4k you can get an excellent pair of headphones and tube/ hybrid headphone amp and not have to deal with Spouse Acceptance Factor, in-room distortion, complaining neighbors etc.

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	About digital files and definition of “masters”...	HD or not HD...	Didital Things Forum	4	49194	04-09-2008
»	New	Analog vs. Digital... without BS...	Are we comparing anything except our own prejudices?...	Didital Things Forum	23	206137	04-15-2009
»	New	New sample 24/96 downloads from HDTT..	Or shall I say will you bat?...	Didital Things Forum	20	176553	02-10-2008
»	New	Reel-to-Reel Tape vs. Raw Better Digital..	So, the "format" and sub-generational stages/...	Didital Things Forum	13	197142	11-16-2007
»	New	Chesky Records went "raw files"...	Chesky Records went "raw files"....	Didital Things Forum	0	22344	04-16-2009
»	New	The BSO and Digital Music...	Around the BSO recording practice....	Didital Things Forum	44	370601	12-02-2008
»	New	The optimum Sampling Rate for bass...	Lynx can handle up to 200.000Khz...	Didital Things Forum	3	48374	02-19-2008
»	New	A need for Resolution /Sampling Assessment Test..	Well, we kind of 'have' a file Virginity Assessment Tes...	Didital Things Forum	1	31619	10-06-2009
»	New	A lucidly implemented digital?..	A lucidly implemented digital?...	Didital Things Forum	0	20458	11-18-2008
»	New	Bravo Brahms, Bravo Wand, Bravo Sony!!!..	What Was That Number You Wanted, Again?...	Didital Things Forum	3	48094	03-21-2011
»	New	To buy an SACD Player?..	Cheap sacd players...	Didital Things Forum	7	69690	04-02-2012