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08-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1841
Post ID: 26865
Reply to: 26864
Name of The Game: Consistency
Awesome, Rick! Perhaps my own standards are too low, but, although I love great electricity, I would be happy to have consistently good electricity. And it sounds like you have a very good shot at this, anyway. Are you using a switching type inverter, or..?


Paul S



08-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1842
Post ID: 26866
Reply to: 26865
I would suspect it is a switcher
Isn't everything these days?
I do not hear any extraneous noises coming from the box or through the speakers.
Here is a link to the device I bought: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XXBVW35/ref=twister_B09H263X7F?_encoding=UTF8&th=1It says nothing about what is inside.  The box is far more imposing that the photograph would suggest.
I had to move my speakers to get to the isolation transformers and last night discovered I had not put them back in the exact same place.  Oncve3 this was settled I did find that the setup is better than I had thought.
The fellow who recommended this set up spoke of installing a separate ground rod just for the inverter - as it is I have it grounded to the house system.  I would think this would make one even more immune to the vagaries of the grid.
I am tempted to give this a try since it does make sense,
I would never have installed a separate ground rod if the system was connected to the line but this seems safe and probably the finalizing of the divorce from the grid.
So far, no regrets at all and I do believe i am enjoying listening to music more.  
Thanks for your thoughts and encouragement
I wish I knew how one imposes spacing between paragraphs here.  I place spaces but they disappear when posted.
08-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1843
Post ID: 26867
Reply to: 26866
Dedicated Ground (again...)
Rick, as I have chronicled at GSC, I have used a dedicated ground for my phono for many years. The Ticket seems to be to keep amp ground wires lifted, and in your case you would connect just the inverter ground wire to the dedicated ground line, and the inverter neutral wire would still go to the house service ground bus. I recommend a bare copper 12 AWG wire, and either clamp it very tightly, or (my preference) solder it to the copper ground rod (use a torch). If necessary, you can use small isolators to stand the wire off surfaces it crosses on the way to the rod.

Impose PP spacing by hitting "Enter" 3 times, rather than 2X.


Paul S
08-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1844
Post ID: 26868
Reply to: 26867
More ground
Thanks for the spacing tip. 

At this point the only part of the inverter attached to the house is through the ground - and that is using a plug for just the ground lead into a close-by receptacle.

My main amplifiers (tri-amplified system) are utilizing only hot and neutral - the rest of the system does have the ground wires connected.

So with the addition of the ground rod there will be nothing connected to any part of the house's electrical system.

The system is absolutely silent - no noises are heard with one's head inside the horn.  

Will be interesting to hear if there are noises you do not realize are there, until they are gone, eliminated with the ground rod.

Did you install your audio ground rod yourself or have someone do it?

An interesting aside - when the battery is at full charge (13 to 14 volts) the output voltage is lower than when the battery nears 12 volts and I do think I am hearing better sound with the battery in the 11.8 to 12.2 volts range.  So much imagination is possible with a new something in the mix.
Take care, Paul
08-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1845
Post ID: 26870
Reply to: 26868
The DIY Version
Rick, I have been in building/construction for most of my life, and very comfortable installing the ground rod and lead-out wire, etc. Easy-peasy, if you ask me. You can drive the rod using a ladder and a demo hammer that is big enough to fit the top of the rod in lieu of a typical bit. If you rent such a tool, there are actually attachments that are made for driving ground rods.

Silent power is good! But there may well be some "inaudible noise" that "rides" the house ground, and the pulsed inverters are said to be particularly "dirty".  You won't know what will happen until you play with it for a while. I would not be without my "bleeder".

Not sure at all about the battery sounding "best when not fully charged", but I think I remember that many batteries are "modeled" at 80%, whatever that means.


Paul S
08-17-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1846
Post ID: 26871
Reply to: 26870
I agree
No question there is noise bleeding in from the rest of house - I just don't know it yet.  When something is taken away I can miss it but am not the most perceptive before being made aware of what to listen for.

John Broskie talks about us being broken in along with new components.  I do wonder about that.  I am enjoying music more the more I listen to this thing.  Of course, something new in the system always makes the system more interesting while one is trying to decide whether it is better or not.  I will know much more about the value of this in a few weeks when the possibility of sonic errors become more annoying from familiarity.

I have an electrician who has done work at my house so I contacted him to do the rod installation.  I am a diy'er but thought that might be something I cannot do.  This is Georgia and the soil in substantially red clay.  Not to mention lots of rocks so i am going to be lazy.

Do you think the copper coated rod is sufficient for this?  I see there are pure copper rods available which would seem the perfect fit for the obsessed kook audiophile.  I hope for this duty the standard copper coat will be plenty good enough.  I suspect it will outlive me.

There is a company in Angleland making a filter for a dedicated ground. The fellow who brought this idea to my attention seems to thing this device made by a company called PURITAN is something to consider.  I could see it having some usefulness when more than one component is connected to the grounding system but with only the inverter I cannot imagine a device no matter how clever doing anything. So there will be a simply substantial wire from the inverter to the rod.

Still seems like the system sounds best with he battery slightly run down.  Took it down to 11.5 volts last night and it continued sounding very good.

I monitor my playback with the RTA part of REW. The only anomaly I see is around 22kHz.  A spike of about 30 dB.  Needless to say I cannot detect it with my ears.  What is strange is this same spike would occur at times with the old setup.  At this point I am not certain it is from the inverter.

I am not one who leaves the system playing music even when i am not listening seriously.  This approach is likely not for those who want to listen for long periods.  With a full charge I think one can expect four hours - which is plenty for me.  One can turn on the charger and go on for any length of time - I do this when making adjustments but have not listened to it with the charger connected.  There is no doubt there is a penalty not to mention the noise form the charger's fan.

I love music too much to listen to it all day long.  I remember Romy writing about listening to one piece of music that was so satisfying that was enough for the day.

Take care, Paul
08-17-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1847
Post ID: 26872
Reply to: 26871
Lower Resistance
I don't know about the Puritan "ground filter", or what sort of own problems it might introduce along with purported benefits, but the main idea of the dedicated ground is to have the lowest resistance possible, and no measurable noise. I believe my own ground rod is copper with a steel core, because that drives better than all copper.

30 dB spike at 22k Hz? Might be from a switcher. Got any dimmers?


Paul S
08-18-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1848
Post ID: 26873
Reply to: 26872
I am skeptical and in agreement
Seems to me if one goes to the trouble of having a single ground point in the ground and there is but one ground point on the inverter and all is plugged into the inverter who needs an interloper? Schultz is reporting about the system of a friend who, lucky for him, seems to have a close to unlimited budget which does tend to tempt one into believing all sorts of wonderful claims.  As opposed to cheap Scots like myself who find every reason they can to say NONSENSE.

As with all of this stuff one never knows until they try.  So I will never know!  

I had not thought about the dimmer and I do believe the light with the dimmer has been on at all times.  I should have suspected that and greatly appreciate you mentioning the possibility of the dimmer.

One never knows what goes on inside our brains but the system has been keeping me entertained and relaxed more than it did.  As I have said before - if I can say this a month from now I will know the inverter is doing something good.

Take care, Paul
08-18-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1849
Post ID: 26874
Reply to: 26873
HF/UHF at +30 dB
Not to over think it, but just tossing it out there: Most tweeters/super tweeters do not have low pass filters to take care of +30 dB at 22k Hz. If your RTA uses a microphone, and your number is above the tweeter's natural output, adjusted for mic curve, then that might be a stretch for some tweeters. Again, not to put an onerous spin on it, but just nerdspeak.

Paul S
08-18-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1850
Post ID: 26875
Reply to: 26874
Not using a super tweeter
I am using the Celestion Axi-periodic compression driver in the KLIPSCH K402 horn which I have boosted considerably when I noticed that the top one and one-half octaves were barely working when playing music so I figured WHY NOT?  and it works just fine.  Distortion measure high at approx. 19 KHz (1.5% thd) at a level one would NEVEr encounter listening to anything one would want to listen to.   I use a xilica Solara DSP which I would have scoffed at a few years ago and now I cannot live without it.  PEQ has come a long way and whatever compromises it imposes are more than made up by advantages from a smoother frquency response which in turn gives a smoother phase response..

There is a dip just before 20kHz but then there is a rise - when measuring with REW - so it is entirely possible this noise is being "heard" by the microphone.  But I am only sweeping from 20Hz to 20Khz.

You can be sure when i get home this afternoon I will measure with the light on and off.

I will need to ask REW to measure to 24kHz - I usually have it stop at 20 - so i have not noticed it before when taking measurements.

But my instincts are that you are right about the source - and better still, I hope you are right!

PS I posted about the inverter at DIYAudio since i spend a fair amount of time there at the PASS Forum - I must admit I posted it just to hear the typical DIYAudio experts tell me how stupid the idea was.  One fellow, who I actually like, made the inane comment of using the batteries to power my amplifiers which require 70 volts of B+ and another told me I needed to add LC sections to my power supply filters.  I love LC filters in the power supply but know all too well that too much of a good thing is not always very good but then I am not omniscient like the omnipresent DIYAudio naysayers.  It is like, instead of listening to their music systems they stare at the computer screen all day waiting to tell someone how their idea won't work with no intention of ever trying it for themselves and most assuredly having never tried it  It is fascinating.  

A fellow who goes by the moniker of PRR, who is a genuine expert on electrical stuff, gave me pause about the need for the ground rod; it may well be superfluous.  He said I should try removing the ground from the inverter to the "house" and to hear what happens.  It turns out the fellow who first posted about this is also trying this.  Makes sense to me.  But then i will know better tomorrow after I have tried it.

Hope the proprietor is not annoyed by my posting about this!

Thanks, Paul, and take care,
08-18-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1851
Post ID: 26876
Reply to: 26875
All compromises
Like anything else in electronic design, it is all about compromises. No resistor is an ideal resistor and no audio circuit is an ideal audio circuit. 

I remember when Meridian Audio came out with their active digital speakers in the mid-80's, and I have to admit they sounded better than a lot of other speakers, even though digital has never been to my taste. In certain circumstances -- and it sounds like you are in those circumstances, a DSP is a reasonable solution that may improve the audio quality.

FWIW, I had excavated and installed a dedicated grounding rod at my old house for my audio system, but at the new house, it has not been necessary.

Ultimately, there are a lot of solutions out there, and the key is knowing if the problems you are encountering in your audio system require a particular solution.

Adrian
08-19-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1852
Post ID: 26877
Reply to: 26876
A thousand ways to skin a .... dog?
If only we all could succumb to the realities of compromise earlier in life instead of thinking there is actually a Holy Grail Perfect Solution to any problem.  Audiokooks would be much happier if we would.

Kind of like polarity - no one really knows which way is best but there is usually one way that is better sounding.  There is no need to know why one way sounds better than another.


I was a purist and swore I would never use PEQ.  Oh, well, live and learn.

My 21 KHz blip disappeared last night and since we were having a cool evening in north Georgia I guess my blip is due to the air conditioner.  Never occurred to me before.

Only place it could invade the system, I would think, is through the ground wire.

I have been wanting to disconnect the ground wire and let the inverter float and hear what happens.  Sometime this weekend.

Maybe a ground rod is not needed at all?  Will be interesting to see if the blip re-occurs with the ground wire disconnected.
08-19-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1853
Post ID: 26878
Reply to: 26877
Ground and Broadcast Noise
About any electric motor can be heard through a hi-fi, including furnaces, ACs, washer, dryer, refridgerators, dishwashers, etc. Isolation efforts include dedicated AC lines with home-run neutral and ground wires. I've never tried one, but there are plug-in "noise supressors" for refridgerators. AC regenerators are known for spreading noise through their own wires to other components, also through the air. Physical distance from susceptable components helps the latter. The neutral and the "safety ground" "should be" tied together inside the component, ie., star grounded. However, it might be that current hangs around in a component, and noise "rides" the charge. In such a case, a ground-only bleeder can often route the standing charge to a ground with a very low resistance. If it works, it works. If not, not.

Paul S
08-19-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1854
Post ID: 26879
Reply to: 26878
Different AC circuits in the home
Paul,

It has also been my experience when dealing with the PurePower that it was sensitive to which circuit from the main breaker that it was plugged in to -- ultimately why I moved to a dedicated line.

It is worth experimenting having the stereo connected to different circuits regarding noise. In my listening area, I had reasonable access to plug the PurePower in to three different circuits; and one of them was considerably less noisy that the other two.

Adrian
09-13-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1855
Post ID: 26880
Reply to: 26878
More experience with the inverter
So after a month I continue to enjoy what the inverter does.

I have found that the time one gets from 400 Ahs with the inverter's meter showing 640 watts usage is about 1.5 hours - you could get two if you let the batteries run down further but I figure this is not worth the strain on the batteries.

I am not a marathon listener but that is a little too short a time.  Of course one could attach the charger.  I have not listened to music with the charger attached so I am not sure how seriously this would affect things.  I got a charger from POWERSONIC which is almost quiet even with the fan on and vastly superior to the DeWalt one I started out with.

One of these days i will leave the charger connected and listen.

I have decided to get another pair of batteries.  Having to build a new table for the right side amplifiers to fit them.  Will be first half of October when they can be added. 

So then one has a real lummox of a power supply but still far cheaper than doing what Fremer did for his AC - which was probably the most interesting thing he has ever done in my unhumble opinion.

I continue to think this has many merits.
09-13-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1856
Post ID: 26881
Reply to: 26880
Great, But What About...
What about the extra 30 dB you said your tweeters get at 22k Hz? And how far did you get and where did you wind up with the dedicated ground?


Best regards,
Paul S
09-13-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1857
Post ID: 26882
Reply to: 26881
Took me a moment to realize what you meant about the 30 dB
That spike went away.

Did not seem to have anything to do with lighting.  Completely mysterious - it just went away and has not returned.

I have not done anything with the ground rod idea.

I did listen with the ground wire unplugged - a plug with just a ground wire into a socket - and heard nothing at all so I cancelled the ground rod installation.

I am starting to think, after looking at battery usage calculators - that I may have a defective battery.  Seems the internet calculators tell me I should be getting far more usage from a full charge than I am getting based upon 400 Ah and 640 watts usage.  The 640 watts is constant, per the inverter's meter.

You are far more knowledgeable than I on these matters - do you think 1.5 hours from full charge to 11.6 volts sounds right for 640 watts continuous usage?  There are no ups and downs since these are class a amplifiers.  Could that alone make a difference?

This afternoon I will have to measure them separately.

Always appreciate your comments and advice.
09-13-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,437
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1858
Post ID: 26883
Reply to: 26882
Advertising vs. Usable Power
I have a long story about battery output and life not coming close to manufacturer's  promises, but I will not tell it. Suffice to say, it may well be that you have a defective battery, as it happens all the time; or, it may be that your batteries don't do as well as advertised; or, your charger might not be optimal for your batteries. Ohm's Law helps with figuring out how many Watts at how many amps your batteries "should" deliver. But, of course, you usually get less, if only because everything is not "optimal", but it takes place in the real world. I can say, I would not be happy with 1.5 hrs. listening time. What, again, is the battery Voltage when you stop charging it?


Paul S
09-13-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1859
Post ID: 26884
Reply to: 26883
Starting at 13.5 volts
I was using a DeWalt charger that would take the batteries to 14.something which of course fell quickly when the amps were turned on.  That one was a 30 amps charger the one I am using now is rated at 55 amps and goes through three modes of charging finishing with a maintenance mode which never turns off.  The DeWalt would turn off for some unknown reason in maintenance mode.
The charger seems to have been made for use such as mine.   It looks like  a serious piece of gear and not something prettified for the consumer market.  I can ask them if it is possible to raise the charging voltage but I got the feeling that 13.5 is a good charging voltage.  I am confident the charger is not the problem (famous last words!).  Confidence can get one in lots of trouble.
I got the batteries from AMAZON and it looked like they simply dropped them off of the back of the truck.  The packing was very good and there was no damage to the appearance of the battery's cases or the packing material - one would not think that internal damage had occurred but I have no way to know about that.  Obviously one of them is working correctly!
If one of the batteries is not doing its share of the work that could explain what seems to be a serious difference between claimed and actual capacity.  The more I look around the more I am concerned I have a bad battery.
Thanks, Paul, for the dialogue.
09-14-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 58
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1860
Post ID: 26885
Reply to: 26884
The main difference between AGM vs LiFePo
Is how long it will maintain voltage and I was a FOOL to think I was saving money by using AGM.
The fellow who gave me the idea used LiFePo but did not make it clear to this dunderhead that using the cheaper AGM would give one vastly reduced playing time.  I assumed the only disadvantage was the size and weight.
Having a Scots surname gets me in trouble quite often with the cheap gene do ingrained in the psyche.
Now to hope there is some kind of second hand market for one month old 137 pounds batteries.

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  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  93044  07-10-2005
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  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  239780  04-30-2007
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