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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO (98 posts, 5 pages)
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04-03-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 15927
Reply to: 5901
A first non-Moronic Goto installation I have seen
fiogf49gjkf0d

I think there is nothing that I need to comment – I have done it before many times:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-elodis-tge-gotorama-pixes-plus.html

For sure the owner of this system would get much meter result by NOT using the horrible Goto “slow” horns but I am afraid it would violate the “cult” sensations.  Anyhow, this is the only attempt I seen where the Goto system owner demonstrates some very rudimental sense. Sure he has room to go  but for any typical superficial Goto user this guy is in advance stage.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-04-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 62
Post ID: 15928
Reply to: 15927
Goto's Advance Stage
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Roman... I strangely (?!?) feel me like a schoolboy at his first primary schoolday... virtually ALL my (limited) audio knowledge, vanished... and I'm dealing with brand-new problems, like a crossover with fixed slopes and cut-off frequencies which do not allow me to properly fine tune the four ways, now about the same (high) efficiency.

It's something which will bring me further in musical satisfaction, as the actual system is capable with some definite music to perform superbly: actually percussions and grand-piano being the best.

On voices and my broad ancient music (Astree, Telefunken, Seon) collection...  well, the "schoolboy" will have to learn how to deal with the lesser performance, micro-detailing and harmonics, actually and not so strangely, not approaching the overall beauty and balance my best German-made 27 cm single speakers or my earspeakers are capable.

I'll sure have to learn more about (good) digital crossovers, allowing me to use a steeper (24 or even 48 db/oct.) slope between bass and mid-low, in order to keep quick low-end response AND  improve - for example - the so beautiful  double-bass harmonics or the harpsichord "wood", instead of someway to much "thick" strings and plucking plectrums, only...

Furthermore, the ambient and listening position, you're right... spending money in audio gears isn't enough... Reinhard pushes me on "Sprungantwort" , you on "DpoLS"... whatever the name, everything must "click" with me, the listener, and the room... it's not a mythical happening, BUT something I already experienced.

Yesterday afternoon, I switched to my baffles with simplest available rig: Mayer preamps, Partridge/300B monoblocks, as I was annoyed by uneven balancing of the BIG system... the sound clicked with the room and I like a circus bear, began to shake my head and humming at this or that music...

No way to fool or being fooled... as always, Music first... 

I'm well aware I'll have to re-learn from scratch on how to squeeze the best from the multi-amped, horns system... 

Best wishes for the task will be much appreciated.  


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
04-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuyen
Posts 4
Joined on 09-23-2010

Post #: 63
Post ID: 15942
Reply to: 15928
Goto setup
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is my current 4-way GOTO setup. I know it is in no way optimal but I am interested to find ways I can improve it's layout.

GOTO SG-38WN woofer in 360L onken cabinet
GOTO SG-505TT mid-low driver with Azurahorn AH-160 horn (160hz le'clech profile)
GOTO SG-370 mid-high driver with Azurahorn AH-550 horn (550hz le'clech profile)
GOTO SG-16TT high driver with GOTO 3000? horn

Using a Pioneer D-23 active electronic crossover. Crossover points are 250hz / 1.25khz / 5khz.  All with 6db slopes.

I attempted some sort of diaphragm alignment for the horn channels. But not sure how to do the bass properly.

04-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 64
Post ID: 15943
Reply to: 15942
Another more or less reasonable attempt using Goto.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 tuyen wrote:
This is my current 4-way GOTO setup. I know it is in no way optimal but I am interested to find ways I can improve it's layout.

GOTO SG-38WN woofer in 360L onken cabinet
GOTO SG-505TT mid-low driver with Azurahorn AH-160 horn (160hz le'clech profile)
GOTO SG-370 mid-high driver with Azurahorn AH-550 horn (550hz le'clech profile)
GOTO SG-16TT high driver with GOTO 3000? horn

Using a Pioneer D-23 active electronic crossover. Crossover points are 250hz / 1.25khz / 5khz.  All with 6db slopes.

I attempted some sort of diaphragm alignment for the horn channels. But not sure how to do the bass properly.


Well, tuyen, this already something. Your former setup with a pile of Gotos sitting atop of the Onken boxes was no worth to mention. I am glad that you eventually came to the Macondo configuration, which is inevitable if a person is not audio-deaf.

You asking to point out weak elements of your setups. Here it comes, without out any specific order of thier severity.

1) You have LF source between the MF sources – this is contradiction of the Macondo Axioms. I understand that you care less about my Macondo Axioms, wait until you live with this setup for a while and it will come to you. What you need to do now is to disconcert your Onken, then bring any bookshelf monitors speakers in the room and connect juts woofer (you can take out the tweeter). Place the monitors in the location of Onkens and EQ them to get any more or less reasonable sound, you do not need to have good sound at this point – juts balance enough sound will be fine. After you get comfortable then move your monitors in the position outside of your Midbass channels. Pay attention what happen with imagine and overall presentation. Make your own conclusions further.

2) You use external active crossover. It means you multi-amp. I do not see any amplification in the playback; in fact I do not see any wires. Is it operational installation or you juts test different configurations and layout? Anyhow, if you multi-amp, and particularly with first order then after you find the right final crossover points then get rid of the D-23 and go for line-level passive filtration. It will give you tremendous advancement.

3) Since you multi-amp you might reconsider to use first order on your perhaps MF and most certainly tweeter. Unless you use SETs with sub 1W then it might be dangers for your Goto drivers. The HF Gotos drivers have no power handling and there are many Goto users out there who burned the Goto’s voice coils.  So, use some logic to protect your tweeter as they are very vulnerable with first order.

4) It would be very interesting to know what amplification you use for your channels.

5) Your 160Hz La-profile horn is a bit controversial in my view. I do applaud your idea to bolt to run it from that 1.5” through, or whatever it is but there is a twist in this notion.  You are in AU and you apparently was presold by your local Azurahorn guy to go for La-profile. The La-profile horns are what he does but the use of the La-profile for base horn is not something that I endorse. I did speaks about it before. The La-profile (the people who can spell call it le'clech profile) are HF optimized horns but for a base horn (base horn is a horn upon which the rest of your system is sitting) is not HF devise. La-profile drops at the bottom very fast and La-profile consume extras few inches of your highs for negative opening that is absolutely irrelevant at the frequencies where your Midbass horn operates. So, you have approximately 36-40” window for your base horn, you can’t go more as you need to have MF at your ear level. You stick an upper-bass horn in the base location – which is very fine but you wasted probably 15% of the space for non-working negative opening of you La-profile. If you do for the same diameter Tratrix then you will have 100-120Hz horn and it were Exponential then it would be probably 80Hz horn. The Exponential would be a foot longer however. If I have your horns then I would probably cut the bottom 3” and top 3” from your upperbass horn, or perhaps 2” of the peripheral.

6) Since you use Goto driver to drive your upperbass horn then you need to play the Fs games with this channels. Remember Goto people (manufactures, dealers, etc) are clueless what they do and you would never see any Goto people who match resonance frequency of their driver with their horns. You need to do it for upperbass even this your upperbass is compromised by La-profile.

7) The 5khz crossover point in the Tweeter? Why is it so? OK you would like to kill your tweeter with 5khz and first order - this is given and in a week it will be dead. Still purely Sonically – you have relatively HF- able MF driver in very fast opening horn – why you do not drive it all the way up? Are you saying the your GOTO SG-370 in La-horn rolls off at 5kHz or sound so bad over  5kHz . I do not think that you are correct and I would like your MF to shoot at least one octave more.

8) Drop a thick capper in front of your speakers – the glossy floor is not what you need to have in there.

9) On the left there is something that looks as it is a door. Is it a door into your listening room? If so then move your both speakers one meter forward and the left speaker one meter on the left, right next to the wall. You will have wider acoustic bias in the room and still will be able to enter the room from behind left speaker.

10) Did you consider change of the room? I mean is it possible to knock the left wall and get more 5-6 feet of the room width? If you have extra 6 feet of the room then you might try the long-wall configuration.
I do not have time to write more now but I think what I have expressed would give you an idea of the initials directions I would be looking.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 16514
Reply to: 15943
Why Goto users are mostly Morons audio-wise?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I interacted at AU site where Tuyen was trying to build his new installation:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=60.0

Eventually I withdrew myself from that community as it was very much beneath my level.  I do not have anything against Tuyen or other people in there but the general level of discourse that is going on in there is too primitive to waste my time anymore. It partially a general attitude that I have lately: I do feel that audio people out there have audio interests that stimulate me very little. In fact I wrote a large post about it, probably I will post sometimes. The situation with Tuyen’s installation is very similar with what I feel about another multichannel- horn installation:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=16294

All those guys do right things and express nature interest in improving own playback but they are light miles away from where real sound begin. They are not driven own sonic demands but they rather preoccupied with rendering this or that solution. This is endless travel to absolute nowhere and I feel incredibly bored with those people , the people who do  not invest own personality and own more or less civilized musical demands into audio accomplishments. As a culmination of the Tuyen’s thread was showing up at that forum that retard from Brasil Angelo – the brainless idiot and scam – the materialization the worse in internet Hi-Fi.

What was very interesting in the Tuyen’s thread is the face of a typical Goto user – a person who is so obsessed with his Goto symptom that he is not able to relate to reality.  It feels like foe those people there is no Sound but there is Goto Sound as some kind cult expression. The fun part is that sect attitude is not supported by advanced users but rather by the guys who are in Goto trade.  The most emblematic was my conversation with Goto US rep who in response to my concerns about Goto sound kept telling me that “Goto is not for everyone but only for those who can afford it”. How more idiotic could it be?!

The said reality is that if to look at the implementation of multichannel installations out there and group the topological advancement by the tendencies of owners to use different drivers then Goto users would be at the very bottom of the taxonomy. The Goto users are too stupid to get it but it what it is. Funny but what Tuyen is trying to do with his playback is very much anti-Goto installation, unfortunately he a bit ruined by another cult – the La-horns but this is a whole another subject. It is another subject but it is still the continuation of the very same subject – those people do not build Sound of own mind but they chew each other’s shit without realization that audio is all about.

I truly miss collaboration with a community of audio users that offer simulative ideas and who use audio and a tool of advancement of accomplishments instead of a crutch of mediocrity. Got users feel that Goto are superior driver but the mediocrity of audio thinking from Goto users burst like a volcano. Is it cause or a reason? I do not know the answer. Friedrich Nietzsche when he stop to write by hand and begin to use a typewriter noted that his thinking and his way of expression of own thoughts begin to change and become less fluent. His quote that I use in my signature line: “Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts" come from him in response to those events. I wonder: is anything in Sound Goto drivers that make a person to become stupid in the realm of audio-perception? This is the question with very much pending answer and I see a lot of evidences that support this proposition.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 66
Post ID: 16515
Reply to: 16514
It's the horn not the driver!
fiogf49gjkf0d

As you can predict what I am going to say, those horns are the problem, not the GOTO driver....  Why will anyone buy GOTO driver and then not follow GOTO recommendation to use GOTO horn???  I don't think anyone buy a Lamborghini or Ferrari sport car and decide to use regular gas for unknown reason or just want to try something new and different.  When the car doesnot perform on the road, it must be the car is the problem, not the driver and not the fuel that you pump into the car just because you don't want to follow the manufacture's recommendation/requirement.

You got my point. 

06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 67
Post ID: 16516
Reply to: 16515
Mingsu, there is something missing
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
you don't want to follow the manufacture's recommendation/requirement.

What are these GOTO's "recommendation/requirements" and where they could be seen/read?



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 68
Post ID: 16517
Reply to: 16515
Lambor-what?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 MINGSU wrote:

As you can predict what I am going to say, those horns are the problem, not the GOTO driver....  Why will anyone buy GOTO driver and then not follow GOTO recommendation to use GOTO horn???  I don't think anyone buy a Lamborghini or Ferrari sport car and decide to use regular gas for unknown reason or just want to try something new and different.  When the car doesnot perform on the road, it must be the car is the problem, not the driver and not the fuel that you pump into the car just because you don't want to follow the manufacture's recommendation/requirement.

You got my point. 

MINGSU, your reference to cars is absolutely irrelevant and serves no other purpose then re-force your own Robb Report inspired vision that Goto drivers are some kind Lamborghini or Ferrari of audio drivers. If the objectives of car owner is to impress the neighbors with a pile of Ferraris in driveway or to pick up more teenager women in his car then I presume Lamborghini would do very fine. However, if the objective is a performance of a car then the brand of the car has much less significance and would be greatly determined by many other factors: skills of driver, surface condition, terrain type, car service level and many others.

In audio the situation is far more complex then with cars. In audio a brand that a person use, would it be a cartridge, driver, amplifier, tube, cable, DAC or anything ales, has absolutely no deterministic value to the final result a person get. In fact the only deterministic factor I know in audio is the reference points of playback owner as anything in audio is subordinate to his will. Those reference points is exactly what I question in many Goto users and from what I see instead of demanding and demonstration of own reference points then embrace some kind of bizarre generic Goto idiocy, presuming that the Goto drivers act as a shield that protect them from common sense and a needs to have a rudimental understanding of what they do.

BTW, your reference to Lamborghini, Ferrari and the similar “moves” is very expected. I think instead of taking about Lamborghinis and Ferraris the Goto user might educate themselves a bit. Otherwise they will remind just the people who glue Lamborghinis emblems to Volkswagen and then push the Volkswagens from the hill by hands.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 69
Post ID: 16518
Reply to: 16517
Car or GOTO
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think most of reader get my point of the car examples.  The main point is to follow the manufacture recommendation on how to use the driver.  Of course, if you want to do something different, that is your choice but don't come back and blame the driver.  Same as the car example.  If the car require 93 gas, don't put 87 in it and then ask why it won't run as expected.  Just like you won't fill diesel car with regular gas. 

Here is an example on how to use GOTO 505TT driver.  Use the GOTO S150 horn and crossover at 200Hz to 1kHz.  If you like to use other type of horn and crossover point, you are on your own.  Maybe good or maybe not but that is your choice.  Yes.  You are correct, every room will be different but the basic setup and crossover of the GOTO SG505TT + GOTO S150 horn will be the same. 

For GOTO SG370, use GOTO S600 horn and crossover from 1kHz to 5kHz.
For GOTO SG160, use built0in GOTO S3000 horn and crossover from 5kHz and up.

Use 1st order with active crossover.  Use 2nd order with passive crossover.


It is fun to try different setup but try the recommended one first and then tweak to fit your room, equipments.  As you pointed out, there is no simple answer but manufacture recommendation should be the 1st to try.
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 70
Post ID: 16519
Reply to: 16518
Goto-san as a dean of Jerry Falwell University.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
As you pointed out, there is no simple answer but manufacture recommendation should be the 1st to try.

Well, I have no idea why you stress the manufacture recommendations. I do not think it was the subject at all, not to mention that the manufacture recommendations from Goto are something that - the Goto re-saller shall keep in the very back burners. Goto does not believe in vertical or horizontal time alignment; do not believe in fast opening horns, do not believe that front and or amplification make any difference, do not believe in response frequency, do not believe in gravity and that humans breathe oxygen. Oh, yes, you said something new: “Use 1st order with active crossover.  Use 2nd order with passive crossover”. Knowing you Mingug I am sure that this last absolutely idiotic “recommendations” did not come from you but came from Goto. Face it, to take seriously what Goto pitching is like to hire GW Bush to teach in MIT…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 71
Post ID: 16520
Reply to: 16519
You are free to try anything that you want but do try it 1st
fiogf49gjkf0d
Have you use GOTO dirver before?  Have you try it with the "GOTO" recommendation?  Have you listen to GOTO in your own system?  If not, I suggest that you do it 1st and then draw your own opinons then.  GOTO never said don't worry about alignment.  That is part of the setup and fine adjustment of a multi-horn system.  It depends on the room and other factors.  However, if you do not start with the suggested crossover point and type of horn to use, you will have hard time to do alignment.  Again my favor car example - by talking about F1 race or watching F1 race will not make you a F1 race driver......

Of course, there are many other driver and horn that people can enjoy and play... there are ALE, GIP, TAD and many other vintage driver and horn.

I happen to be a supporter of GW Bush.  I doubt that he will teach in MIT but why will one ever want him to teach at MIT at 1st place???  Is it GW's fault or whoever has the idea's fault??  I rest my case.................................
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 16521
Reply to: 16520
Do not make me to laugh about "GOTO recommendation".
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
Have you use GOTO dirver before?  Have you try it with the "GOTO" recommendation?  Have you listen to GOTO in your own system?  If not, I suggest that you do it 1st and then draw your own opinons then.  GOTO never said don't worry about alignment.  That is part of the setup and fine adjustment of a multi-horn system.  It depends on the room and other factors.  However, if you do not start with the suggested crossover point and type of horn to use, you will have hard time to do alignment.  Again my favor car example - by talking about F1 race or watching F1 race will not make you a F1 race driver......

Of course, there are many other driver and horn that people can enjoy and play... there are ALE, GIP, TAD and many other vintage driver and horn.

I happen to be a supporter of GW Bush.  I doubt that he will teach in MIT but why will one ever want him to teach at MIT at 1st place???  Is it GW's fault or whoever has the idea's fault??  I rest my case.................................
It is very much not about me trying or not trying the GOTO drivers but rather about Goto people who even feel that the phrase “Have you try it with the "GOTO" recommendation?” might  have any more sense than to be said for laughs. If you said that Goto never said anything about time alignment then you are either uninformed or just sorry to say lie. Again, Mingsu, just a friendly advice: drop all this Lamborghini and F1 association as it makes you and your products to appear insultingly lightweight. I am sure that you, the “FoxNews Intellectuals”, the  lightweightness and ignorance are the business propulsion tools but Erath does not spin around anything – it spins itself.  

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 73
Post ID: 16522
Reply to: 16518
Is that all?? I'm disappoined, honestly.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
Here is an example on how to use GOTO 505TT driver.  Use the GOTO S150 horn and crossover at 200Hz to 1kHz.  If you like to use other type of horn and crossover point, you are on your own.  Maybe good or maybe not but that is your choice.  Yes.  You are correct, every room will be different but the basic setup and crossover of the GOTO SG505TT + GOTO S150 horn will be the same. 

For GOTO SG370, use GOTO S600 horn and crossover from 1kHz to 5kHz.
For GOTO SG160, use built0in GOTO S3000 horn and crossover from 5kHz and up.

Use 1st order with active crossover.  Use 2nd order with passive crossover.

Mingsu, sorry, but someone has to inform you that just having GOTO (actually no matter what kind of brand) drivers, loaded in “proper” horns doesn’t mean absolutely nothing, if they are not arranged in space to work as a whole acoustic system. The concept behind the system strategy is much more important than the type of the drivers, and it determines more than 80% of the end result. From what I have seen across the internet, it seems most of the goto “systems” are nothing more and nothing less than just a pile of brainlessly arranged drivers loaded in horns.
You know it is very easy to build an imaginary world around you, with different physical laws, with different gravity, with different colored sky, and to feel very comfortable inside it, but what it has to do with the reality?
I have never seen “plans” of goto “recommended” acoustic system and I suggest you to find for yourself why it is so…

Best regards,
Haralanov



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 74
Post ID: 16523
Reply to: 16521
Http://www.capitalaudiofest.com/
fiogf49gjkf0d
You can hear a full 4 way GOTO in this event next month.  Come down, stop by, enjoy and judge yourself, in person. 

http://www.capitalaudiofest.com/  July 8-10 in Rockville, MD.
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 75
Post ID: 16524
Reply to: 16522
Nothing is easy with multi-horn setup
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is a complex topic to setup a multi-horn system.  What do you expect that something like this will come in a step-by-step instruction?  It is years of effort to get it right.  The discussion that we have here is wrong horn pair up with driver and wrong crossover point.  The result is there - not sounding good.  But I don't know why the conclusion is the GOTO driver is to blame for the sound that I don't really understand.  One thing that I am sure is not the driver itself.  It is the combination of driver + horn + setup that result in such issue.  My main point of my posting is to remind reader that do not judge the driver just because it doesnot use in the correct recommended setup.  I think this apply to anything that anyone wants to judge - car, plane, food or speaker driver.... Maybe, the horn is not a good match.... Maybe, the room is not treated correctly....Maybe....Maybe....  And finally, maybe the driver is no good.....  but to jump in and delcare the drive is the only issue... I don't think that is the correct way to improve the system.

So, again my car example - if you put the right grade of gas into the tank and still not happy with its performance ... it might be the car... it might be the wrong tire... or it might be the driver.....  I will think the 1st guess should be the driver, not the car.....  Maybe I should try other example  but I think car is a more common object that most people can relate to.

Also, judge it when you have real experience with it... not just read and talk about it...

Sorry that I have to jump in with all these posting because I have an interest to not seeing the GOTO being trashed by someone that has never used them before.... 
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 76
Post ID: 16527
Reply to: 16524
Stop to be defensive.
fiogf49gjkf0d
MINGSU, quite in contrary: the multi-horn setup is very easy. You just do not need to do many stupid things, those things that unfortunately many multi-horn setup users do. If you do not do stupid things then whatever then will stick to the wall with perform perfectly fine  It is ironic that you advocate gluing with the recommendations that your driver manufactures extend and do not understand that those recommendations are exactly the stupidest things multi-horn user can do.

Also, MINGSU you are keep failing to understand that no one “trashing” your Goto drivers. I do express a great disrespect to multi-horn system design ideas that Goto has and I consider that absolutely Moronic playbacks out there that ignorant people use is the direct result of Goto (the company) incompetence.  If you are so  obsessed with your driver then I would like to point out that no one ever talked about Sound of Goto drives or about the specifics of playback that the is based upon some specific uniqueness of Goto Sound. It never happened but what I see again and again is that a person getting involved into Goto cult end up with completely fuck up installation. This is not fantasies but facts. Not surprisingly is that if anyone open mouth about the true character of Goto sound then it become a violator of the rules, exactly what happened at KillerDack forum  that I link above.
 
In the end, please, do not threaten me with “personal experience” and that “never used before”.  I did not eat shit before but I think I have a common sense to presume that it will not be the most rewarding culinary experience. There is no need to be defensive. I always love to hear the people blame and accurse the things that I use. Why to be defensive, use it as opportunity to learn. BTW, some new Goto users discard the stupid BS the Goto preach and build very much anti-Goto installations, even using the Goto drivers. I do not know the results they have but I can only predict that it will be way more advanced then what the “manufacture recommend”.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 77
Post ID: 16528
Reply to: 16527
To illustrate my point.
fiogf49gjkf0d
BTW, to illustrate my point. Here is typical Goto inhalation. In fact this is the better among others as to be typical the MF divers need to be lined up horizontally. I can hardly believe a person needed to be more Moron to voluntary arrange drivers in this configuration.  BTW, he would be the same Moron if he use Altec driver. However, if he were Altec user then he would despise my criticism because my criticism is misspelled. But because his is Goto user he my discard my criticism because “you are not familiar with Goto”. Sure my specialty is not compression drivers but the unfortunate idiocy of their owners….

TypicalGotoSetup.jpg

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 78
Post ID: 16530
Reply to: 16518
Goto 505TT user right here.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
I think most of reader get my point of the car examples.  The main point is to follow the manufacture recommendation on how to use the driver.  Of course, if you want to do something different, that is your choice but don't come back and blame the driver.  Same as the car example.  If the car require 93 gas, don't put 87 in it and then ask why it won't run as expected.  Just like you won't fill diesel car with regular gas. 

Here is an example on how to use GOTO 505TT driver.  Use the GOTO S150 horn and crossover at 200Hz to 1kHz.  If you like to use other type of horn and crossover point, you are on your own.  Maybe good or maybe not but that is your choice.  Yes.  You are correct, every room will be different but the basic setup and crossover of the GOTO SG505TT + GOTO S150 horn will be the same. 

For GOTO SG370, use GOTO S600 horn and crossover from 1kHz to 5kHz.
For GOTO SG160, use built0in GOTO S3000 horn and crossover from 5kHz and up.

Use 1st order with active crossover.  Use 2nd order with passive crossover.


It is fun to try different setup but try the recommended one first and then tweak to fit your room, equipments.  As you pointed out, there is no simple answer but manufacture recommendation should be the 1st to try.
Hey guys, I bought the Goto 505TT with S150 horn brand new over 2 years ago. Guess what? I'd still be in sonic shit if I followed the 200-1000hz "recommendation". The 505TT does not perform well below 400hz and when I finally got a chance to measure the response, it showed a significant drop in output between 200-400hz. That explains why I've always had a problem integrating the upper 3 horns with my 53hz midbass. It wasn't so much because they were setup horizontally but the fact I've had a sonic black hole between 200-400hz. Ironically, I'm happily using the front portion of the S150 horn (150hz with about 4" throat) with a 6.5in driver John Hasquin had said good things about. Sonically, the 6.5in is slightly less sharp and less neutral sounding than Goto 505TT but the fact it goes down to 200hz is more than enough to make up for it. If I ever go 6 way I'd probably load a 6 or 8in into a 135hz tractrix for the punch between 150-400hz then load Goto into 200hz tractrix for 400-1200hz. Keith
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 79
Post ID: 16531
Reply to: 16530
It might be not what you think.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 

 Kcct82 wrote:
Hey guys, I bought the Goto 505TT with S150 horn brand new over 2 years ago. Guess what? I'd still be in sonic shit if I followed the 200-1000hz "recommendation". The 505TT does not perform well below 400hz and when I finally got a chance to measure the response, it showed a significant drop in output between 200-400hz. That explains why I've always had a problem integrating the upper 3 horns with my 53hz midbass. It wasn't so much because they were setup horizontally but the fact I've had a sonic black hole between 200-400hz. Ironically, I'm happily using the front portion of the S150 horn (150hz with about 4" throat) with a 6.5in driver John Hasquin had said good things about. Sonically, the 6.5in is slightly less sharp and less neutral sounding than Goto 505TT but the fact it goes down to 200hz is more than enough to make up for it. If I ever go 6 way I'd probably load a 6 or 8in into a 135hz tractrix for the punch between 150-400hz then load Goto into 200hz tractrix for 400-1200hz. Keith

That is what I did. Macondo has 125Hz tractrix with 4” throat an 8” Fane Studio 8M for upperbass tune for 115Hz. The next channel is what I call Fundamentals 500-1000Hz, I use 250hz tractrix with 1.5 throat and Vitavox S3 driver. My initial sentiment for years was that I would like to have my Fundamentals channel to go a bit lower, let say to 350-400hz but I did not want to the diameter of the Fundamentals horn to grow. Then, what I began to use the a dedicated midbass horn (40-107Hz) I felt that I do not have drive my Fundamentals lower as the upper knee of midbass do what is necessary in 350-400hz region.

I do not like the drivers like Goto 505TT. They are all the replica of Western Electric idea of using a 1” MF driver and to drive it with very long and very slow opening horn in order to get 100Hz.  Yes it is possible to do but such a long horn unfortunately has no use in contemporary systems. If one use time-alignment as religiously as I do then those time of divers had no use at all. You can get from them reputable 500Hz and that is about it. You need to do for Goto drivers of 3-4’ exit to get 200Hz from them in tractrix.

There is another side of the story. Goto driver shall be notoriously not stable. It is a small driver manufacture with no quality control at all, with history of neglect to measurements, with practically zero user intelligence invested in the fields.  Goto operates in environment of absolute ignorance of users and am very certain that they do not maintain any manufactures standers. As any other compression drivers out there the diaphragm of your Goto 505TT shall be aligned and only this can easy bring you a ½ octave lower operation.  I am sure many Goto users feel that driver maintenance means to shine Goto labels but as I said – there are plenty of Morons out there… take a look if that “significant drop in output between 200-400hz” happens identically for both of your drivers. It might happen that the diaphragms are not centered properly in the gap – a very common problem.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuyen
Posts 4
Joined on 09-23-2010

Post #: 80
Post ID: 16532
Reply to: 16530
I can hear the hole too.. hence why I questioned the type of horn I am using..
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Keith,

Interesting experience you have as I have found running my 505TT with the 160hz le'clech horns between 320hz-1200hz (with first order slope) works best for my setup and using my 15" goto sg-38wn woofer to play under 320hz (which sounds very fantastic to my ears might I add! The goto woofer which replaced the altec 416 in onken cabinet has made the biggest improvement to the coherency and 'sound-as-a-whole' for my system). 

When i change the cutoff of the 505tt to 200hz and 250hz, I experience that same 'hole' you mention about.  Hence why I was questioning if it is the 160hz le'clech horn causing this and if using the goto s150 horn with it's different horn profile would change it (eg. playing down to 200hz with a first order slope as recommended??).   I guess from your experiences, it doesn't..

Please note, I don't have any measuring tools though so I'm really just going by my ear which is quite pointless in terms of setting it up properly.  Will eventually get around to it. Smile

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