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01-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 741
Post ID: 15478
Reply to: 15470
The PP2000 with capacitance shunted battery
fiogf49gjkf0d
I certainly have my hands full with those dams PP2000. As I least last night UPS lost one of my units I send to PurePower to repair.  The shipment was insured but the saddest part is that it was the best sounding PP2000 of mine. So, I will not be getting a fix PP2000 this week.  I hope to get my 3 working unit s sometime before I die…

What I did today was to load one of my PP2000 battery tray with 8x15000 CDE caps and slide it to my the only Ok operating PP2000 unit

PP2000_ExtraButtery_1.JPG

PP2000_ExtraButtery_2.JPG


PP2000_ExtraButtery_3.JPG

To my huge surprise it was large Sonic difference with butteries shunted with large caps. I can’t make judgment at this point if the caps helped the PP2000 to be more decupled from electricity. I will be able to do it with time.  For now I left the caps to format a bit for a few days as they are too new.  I think some changed that I noted with sound will be changed as caps get more burn in. So, what happened with sound for now?

Fist is the bass. Believe me or not but if the PP2000 was phenomenal then with large battery shunted caps it is absolutely out of this word The Sound all together become harder, not bright but harder. The harmonics got eaten a bit and Sound because a bit faster, in fact too fast to my taste. The whole Sound become like driving BMW after driving old Acuras. Again, it got harder but structure not by more HF. It might be that I used too much capacitance or it might let hardness to go with time as caps will settle down.

I do not have opinion at this point if the change I got positive or not. I like some aspect of it and I do not like others. Let see what will happen when with the caps in a few days.  BTW, publishing this data I under no circumstances solicit other people to do it, particularly if they do not know what they do. Let see how my result goes with time…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 742
Post ID: 15479
Reply to: 15478
Capacitance shunted battery: next day.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would say that nothing has changed since last night. The sound still a bit harder then I would like it to have. This hardness is very interesting and in way different, it is not type of the hardness that I would discard as “bad” attribute of sound but it is also not something that I would do intentionally. I am still on a fence with the result and will see what happen later.
 
What however is the most fascinating is why bass became so much greater. I would still call this new bass too hard bass but at the same time it is more extended and more articulate., I would say even a bit more over articulate then I would like it to have. If I have this sound I would load the output tube at my bass amp for 25%-50% harder.

Thinking why I got the change in bass I do not see answers. PurePower people insist that one of the reasons why their regenerator sound so good (when it works properly!) because it capacity to react to ultra short reaction of current. So, presumably with core capacitance the energy storage on buttery become able to give away more instant current.  This in a way imposable as PP2000 is by topology not a able to give the instant current.  Also, my system operates in class A with current draw is absolutely steady, furthermore the current is stabilized by a lot of input chokes. So, why the caps affected sound so much? I do not find any sensible explanations.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 743
Post ID: 15481
Reply to: 15479
The hardiness correction.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
… The sound still a bit harder then I would like it to have…  I do not find any sensible explanations.

I was breaking my head trying to figure out why the large caps shunted battery in PP2000 suddenly gave me change in hardness.  It is absolutely imposable in my mind… and it looks like that my mind is functioning properly. Upon further thinking and some experimentation I figured out that the source of the hardiness was absolutely not related to PP2000 and it was due to another absolutely ridicules reasons that is unbelievable itself.

Anyhow, I have got rid of the hardiness and the caps shunted battery in PP2000 sound just fine. I do not see any change in sound with caps and with caps but of course it needs to be viewed in context of changing electricity quality.  Let see how it goes.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
joaco


The Pacific Coast in Chile
Posts 30
Joined on 12-17-2010

Post #: 744
Post ID: 15483
Reply to: 2931
Another example of energy
fiogf49gjkf0d
I do not know if this should be posted on an other thread but im posting it here only because I was looking for a solution nearer than PP2000 (in my country) so this is the story ; Two days ago I make the 120km that spread Viña del Mar from Santiago and went to talk to a well known electronic manofacturer , these people make the devices that filter the whole energy so the Chilean Goverment could monitor the seismic activity without problemas and a lots of laboratories and eolic manofacturers buy their filters . Well , I talked to this guy and he invite me to their laboratory so I can test and simulate the device that they were offering me . It is a regenerator (pure sinusoidal) that has the ability to function on batteries , so I was thinking , just like an UPS with that has the capability of making a new wave and of course it filters the crap in the lines . I bought it and went home , coonect everything without any expectation , for my surprise inmediately appears an enormous difference , the background was absolutely black without losing any dynamics , it was like being in the darkest night but with very shinning stars . The voices and instruments are totally new , just like adding a very high end clock but without any bit of "digitalitis" I had try expensive filters but this was a surprise for me , so everybody here is talking about it , I do not know why nobody notice these guys before . I had to modify a little the device because it is not suited for highehd audio but for other enviroment , its been two days with it and always the same result ; purity keeping the attributes of the amp and dac . As this guys do not know nothing about highend audio prices the device is really cheap (about USD 550) but better than very expensive gear I had try .
so ... this is another example of good solutions not coming from audio high end manofacturers , (just like everything else) 

f&f regenerator.JPG

The voltage in my apartament varies from 223 to 230 but the output is set at 230V , for example a friend living near has only 212V , so the electricity in this place isn´t good , nobody knows the real polution on the lines here , but I receive an email coming from europe from a Chilean person who used to work here on the energy field , his job was to measure and report installations from houses or corporates , the mail says that the electricity hear has all kind of bugs all day long . 

01-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 745
Post ID: 15484
Reply to: 15483
As a Total Package
fiogf49gjkf0d
Joaco, all this will probably be moved back to the "Electricity" thread, which is not really an APS Forum, as it has appeared for a while, now.

No one supposes that other alternatives do not exist; it is rather just a case where everthing has not yet been tried.  It is interesting when someone says he has another "solution".  Then, of course, it becomes a question of determining the person's demands and/or trying it out personally.  There are lots of these things "out there" that have been touted for years by low-demands users and industry pimps, alike.  Still, lots of ears stick up and turn to whenever a new candidate comes to light!

You do not mention the manufacturer's name, although I see that the screen you pictured bears its legends in English rather than Spanish, albeit 230V/50 Hz is not the USA standard, unless we are talking about "balanced" input (and 60 Hz option...).

I hope you will also explain about the batteries you use, how you charge and re-charge them, and if the batteries charge while the power supply is in use for hi-fi, or if the unit is "unplugged", running only on batteries, when it is used for hi-fi.

Please also tell about the power system "capacity" in Watts and the useable running time (Amp hours...).

Best regards,
Paul
01-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
joaco


The Pacific Coast in Chile
Posts 30
Joined on 12-17-2010

Post #: 746
Post ID: 15485
Reply to: 15484
Little more information ...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Joaco, all this will probably be moved back to the "Electricity" thread, which is not really an APS Forum, as it has appeared for a while, now. Paul

Yes , I made a mistake ... it will be much better in the Electricity thread 


 Paul S wrote:
You do not mention the manufacturer's name, although I see that the screen you pictured bears its legends in English rather than Spanish, albeit 230V is not the USA standard, unless we are talking about "balanced" input.
Paul

Paul , the "manofactures" name is Fernadez & Fica (two surnames) their site is http://www.socomec.com/Home_en.html I think these people are importing some units from the USA and modifying them to local use , thats why the screen is in english . Anyway I think they have a very good way of thinking and doing things .
 Paul S wrote:
I hope you will also explain about the batteries you use, how you charge and re-charge them, and if the batteries charge while the power supply is in use for hi-fi, or if the unit is "unplugged", running only on batteries, when it is used for hi-fi.Paul
The unit is not intended for long periods running from batteries , the goal of the batteries are to protect from a blackout and to have enough time to react but you can add an external battery bank too . I havent made experiments running only on batteries yet . But the manual says it use 3 x 7.2V 12ah . There are different modes of running the unit , but the batteries are always charging until they reach full charge , if you unplugg the unit it will use the batteries and the inverter too , the "inverter" use the feature that is called double-conversion technology on the pure power 2000 , the guy at the lab told me the same "this unit use double conversion technology it is the word -inverter- on the screen . you can leave the batteries charging and have 0 volt output as well , or use the bypass meaning no regeneration of the wave but only filtering .
 Paul S wrote:
Please also tell about the system "capacity" in Watts and the useable running time (Amp hours...).Paul

The device is intended for use up to 1KV , 2 and 3 KV version where available too . My system consist on a 2A3/45 amplifier , a Reimyo DAC , and a passive magnetic pre amp . According to the % of the load on the screen , it uses 13% of the full 1KV . The transport is a mac laptop when it is connected and charging the batterie the load goes up until 19% . 
Now im wondering if the pure power2k  unit is basically an UPS with double conversion technology designed for highend audio . ??? and what about all the ps audio devices what kind of technology are they using ? the device has bring in a lot of questions for me ...
I will take some pictures of the modes for better understanding and from the inside of the unit .
ps : excuse me if I havent made my self clear but please understand that english isn´t my first language ...

01-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 747
Post ID: 15486
Reply to: 15485
Power
fiogf49gjkf0d
Joaco
Thanks for sharing
But Can you mention the name of the product too ?
The manufacturer Site is in Spanish and I could not find out which one is it.
Another question is do you reckon that they will ship single unit outside usa too ?


Thanks.
  unicon


01-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 748
Post ID: 15487
Reply to: 15486
"Designed For"
fiogf49gjkf0d
Joaco, please do not worry about your English. This is an "international" forum, and all are welcome, according to ideas rather than perfect American English grammer and spelling.  Mi Espanol es malo, tambien!  If anyone has a question due to troubles with syntax, etc., I'm sure s/he will ask.

Lots of these units make for "blacker backgrounds" and a "wider soundstage", however this has in the past come at the expense of the essence and substance of the music, according to various other audible defects brought on by the "regenerator"; typically, broadly, there are problems with dynamics and tonal variation.  I suspect that none of these units so far have really been designed from scratch for hi-fi, rather I suspect that most of the "hi-fi-specific" units are +/- minor adaptations of prior technology with "added features" and marketing aimed at audiophiles.  Most of the "prior technology" seems to be along the lines of somehow manipulating oscilliscope traces to show nice shapes, and "audiophile" versions typically offer some ways to play with the things while they are in use.

Since you use your unit directly from wall power and you like the results, will you also tell what sort of speakers you use and what sort of music, at what sort of volumes, you like better with the unit engaged?

Best regards,
Paul
01-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
joaco


The Pacific Coast in Chile
Posts 30
Joined on 12-17-2010

Post #: 749
Post ID: 15492
Reply to: 15487
Finding my personal solution
fiogf49gjkf0d
 unicon wrote:
Joaco
But Can you mention the name of the product too ?
The manufacturer Site is in Spanish and I could not find out which one is it.
Another question is do you reckon that they will ship single unit outside usa too ?

The product on their site is under UPS... the model is the "Titan" (on line doble conversión) 1kV . Note that the unit use a fan that I disconnect from the motherboard , I told the guys that I do not want any noise from a fan so they told me if the load of the unit is low "it may be safe disconecting it but we do not know" ... The fan is also there to prolonging the life of the batteries , this units are installed on agressive climate so they do not care if they make noise . Theres a link on their catalogues to this site http://www.socomec.com/Home_en.html I think they both work together in some way , so may be you can try a unit from them for local use . they must share many things .




 Paul S wrote:

Lots of these units make for "blacker backgrounds" and a "wider soundstage", however this has in the past come at the expense of the essence and substance of the music, according to various other audible defects brought on by the "regenerator"; typically, broadly, there are problems with dynamics and tonal variation. 
I know what you are talking about , I think the "blacker background" in this case is only because of the cleaner ac wave so the drivers are dead quietly ( cero hum) and are able to reproduce the silence between instruments , after all IMHO thats the black background , is the silence between instruments or between individuals in the orchesta . Once I tried a device (clock) that made this effect but destroy every bit of human music turning the whole system sterile . Im aware of this effect of the "substance of the music" and I think it is very delicate , any bit badly reproduced can IMHO kill all that substance , and the emotion that the system can transmit goes away . About dynamics im not feeling any loss , but be aware that I have the unit for 4 days so I need more time to have solid conclusions . 
 Paul S wrote:

 I suspect that none of these units so far have really been designed from scratch for hi-fi, rather I suspect that most of the "hi-fi-specific" units are +/- minor adaptations of prior technology with "added features" and marketing aimed at audiophiles.  Most of the "prior technology" seems to be along the lines of somehow manipulating oscilliscope traces to show nice shapes, and "audiophile" versions typically offer some ways to play with the things while they are in use.
I totally agree .
 Paul S wrote:

Since you use your unit directly from wall power and you like the results, will you also tell what sort of speakers you use and what sort of music, at what sort of volumes, you like better with the unit engaged?

Paul , I build up a custom speaker enclosure for using the 416-8B woofer and the 802 8G mid-high from A.L , Mr . Bruce Edgar made me a 650Hz tractrix horn , right now im listening to only one speaker in mono configuration , but just because my room is not big enough for stereo , I had try two speakers but I get too much acustic problems because of so much sound . When im ready I think I can try the stereo setup  , but to be done well I need more space . So to my needs (room size + s.e.t + big speakers ) the correct way IMHO is only one speaker until I can manage acoustic problems on the room . Lately im listening jazz trios and quartets but also very much classical , instrumental , and vocal . I use to hear a little higher than normal talking , but just a little , only when I listen to classical I raise up a little more the volumen pot . I do not know yet what kind of music I like better with the unit but can tell that fundamental tones are very , very clear but with extensions (harmonics) and the bass has become very tight leaving a clear space for mid-bass , mid-bass was not clear but was distorted by the bass until I plug the unit , the changes on voices are very noticeables also the tones of instruments have become incredible real . On monday I will go to a friend house with the unit and will try it in his configuration , will let you know what we think .
-------
Romy ; One question for you ; Does the pure power unit raise its temperature (gets hot) when youre using it ? or is it always cold ? I do not know what kind of IC they are using but I suspect they are "new generation ones??" I was making my self these question because the unit I bought use very few SMD chips . Lastly does PP2000 produce their own chips or are they using 3rd party ones ?

01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 750
Post ID: 15493
Reply to: 15483
Fernadez regenerator: want to know more.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Joaco, thanks for sharing.

We still do not know what make those units to sound to sound good, so in a way we are shooting in dark. 

 I have no doubts that there is great number of commercial units out there, similar to APS PurePower, which might be suitable for audio use. The PurePower is just one of adaptations, it might be others. I have seen some similar to PurePower specially for audio devises and I am sure that the park of those units will grow as it looks like all commercial industry is switching to switching power supplies, pun intended.

I did not see your unto but from what you describe it sound interesting. You said that you use 2A3/45 amplifier, do you use choke or capacitance right after your rectifiers? It would be interesting if you plug a scope into your loaded regenerator and post a picture (make sure that you lift grid on your scope).
The interface on that unit of your looks very good, they have even bypass indicator – something that we can’t get from PurePower for a while. The changes in sound you describe are about right – that is what sound of good electricity shall produce. Tell more about this Fernadez regenerator. If it sound good and function well then I would like to hear it and to see how it will be able to push up against my PurePower. It is very difficult to talk about this subject as different locations, not to mention different countries has own problem with electricity and we never know how any specific unit might deal with any problems that specific location has

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 751
Post ID: 15494
Reply to: 15492
Pure Power configuration
fiogf49gjkf0d
 joaco wrote:
Romy ; One question for you ; Does the pure power unit raise its temperature (gets hot) when youre using it ? or is it always cold ? I do not know what kind of IC they are using but I suspect they are "new generation ones??" I was making my self these question because the unit I bought use very few SMD chips. Lastly does PP2000 produce their own chips or are they using 3rd party ones?
  
Joaco, nope the pure power runs cool and do not gets hot. It is in a way irrelevant and has to do with surface of heat sink and the way how the heat sinks get ventilated.  I think Pure Power caught a good configuration between fan noise and temperature, so good the both of them is not a problem in new units. About the SMD chips – I do not understand your question. You can’t count chips and to make any judgment with knowing at least block schematics of a unit. I do not have it for PP2000. My engineers did made a comment that PP2000 if it properly made shall have 3 time less pars then it has but I do not know how correct it is. I do not think Pure Power made own chips. They might write own logic (software) for generic chips, as anybody else do, but I do not think that they can afford, of have any needs for that matter,  to make own hardware. I do not know what kind out switching amp Pure Power use. I think that they have this own discrete amp that is spread around their motherboard, well not their own but by the company that do the PP2000 for them. I did not see that they took one of many off the shelf class D amps and use it in PP2000.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
joaco


The Pacific Coast in Chile
Posts 30
Joined on 12-17-2010

Post #: 752
Post ID: 15495
Reply to: 15493
Fernadez & Fica some more info .
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Joaco, thanks for sharing.
You said that you use 2A3/45 amplifier, do you use choke or capacitance right after your rectifiers? It would be interesting if you plug a scope into your loaded regenerator and post a picture (make sure that you lift grid on your scope). 

About the 2A3/45 , I ask a technician from Japan that lives several years in Chile to build it , he develope the whole tech repair lab for pioneer here or panasonic I do not remember well , but he leaves Chile about 6 years ago and return to Japan , he build it from scratch , living near akihabara can get any component .Please as he does not permit any copy of his site go to http://www.single-ended.com and click on "45&2A3" (on top) and the first schematics is my amplifier you can see the amp is the second one , so you can get your own conclusions about the circuit design ... ( i need to ask you something about it later ) I do not have a scope but im very interested in buying one .
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Tell more about this Fernadez regenerator. 

there was a problem on an earlier post , the site of this manofacturer is http://www.fernandezfica.cl/ but I found some links on their catalogs to this site http://www.socomec.com/Home_en.html .
About 4 years ago a local guy who owns a studio and very good quality components post he had founded a solution for his needs . I know this guy tried every PS audio that was available and some more because he post it on a local forum . He end up buying some devices (I do not know which ones) from fernadez&fica and post that were better for his needs than the ones he had try , so he sold all his other filters . At that time I wasn´t aware of this phenomena as I was fighting with the ugliest horn ever made , the altec 811-B .One thing I have notice and I do not know if it is responsability of the dac chip itsel (multi bit) or the clean ac wave is that now the music is very articulate , it does have enormous sense each note after the other one , it is very difficult to explain but it is like changing the director of an orchestra to a better one in terms of musicality  . Maybe a missing note or distorted one can inarticulate music in such a way that we don´t like it or feel confortable with it .One positive thing is that I called the guy who sold it and tell it was a good unit but that I need a zero noise solution and that one friend of mine is also interested , for my surprise he told me that maybe they can change or adapt the unit for audio use and he is going to ask permission for modifications, I prefer not to have any hope on his words but maybe something interesting can came out of it .
I will try the unit in different modes and let you know . 
regards .


01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 753
Post ID: 15496
Reply to: 15495
What exactly unit you are taking about?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 joaco wrote:
About the 2A3/45 , I ask a technician from Japan that lives several years in Chile to build it , he develope the whole tech repair lab for pioneer here or panasonic I do not remember well , but he leaves Chile about 6 years ago and return to Japan , he build it from scratch , living near akihabara can get any component .Please as he does not permit any copy of his site go to http://www.single-ended.com and click on "45&2A3" (on top) and the first schematics is my amplifier you can see the amp is the second one , so you can get your own conclusions about the circuit design ... ( i need to ask you something about it later ) I do not have a scope but im very interested in buying one .

Your amp has input capacitor, so it shall be working fine with class D regenerators like PP2000 and presumably your regenerator.

 joaco wrote:
there was a problem on an earlier post , the site of this manofacturer is http://www.fernandezfica.cl/ but I found some links on their catalogs to this site http://www.socomec.com/Home_en.html .
About 4 years ago a local guy who owns a studio and very good quality components post he had founded a solution for his needs . I know this guy tried every PS audio that was available and some more because he post it on a local forum . He end up buying some devices (I do not know which ones) from fernadez&fica and post that were better for his needs than the ones he had try , so he sold all his other filters . At that time I wasn´t aware of this phenomena as I was fighting with the ugliest horn ever made , the altec 811-B .One thing I have notice and I do not know if it is responsability of the dac chip itsel (multi bit) or the clean ac wave is that now the music is very articulate , it does have enormous sense each note after the other one , it is very difficult to explain but it is like changing the director of an orchestra to a better one in terms of musicality  . Maybe a missing note or distorted one can inarticulate music in such a way that we don´t like it or feel confortable with it .One positive thing is that I called the guy who sold it and tell it was a good unit but that I need a zero noise solution and that one friend of mine is also interested , for my surprise he told me that maybe they can change or adapt the unit for audio use and he is going to ask permission for modifications, I prefer not to have any hope on his words but maybe something interesting can came out of it .
I will try the unit in different modes and let you know.

I would like to point out that your links still do not clearly indicate the products you refer to. There are literally 100s on-line converters produced by dozen companies. You need to specify what exactly unit you are taking about.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
joaco


The Pacific Coast in Chile
Posts 30
Joined on 12-17-2010

Post #: 754
Post ID: 15497
Reply to: 15496
UPS unit
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
You need to specify what exactly unit you are taking about.
The Cat
As I cannot put directly the link , please go to http://www.fernandezfica.cl at the left column click on UPS . Then at the right column will appear all UPS units . Im using the third one : "TITAN on-line doble-conversión" 1Kv model . If you click it , you can access more info . Their catalogue for the unit is this http://www.fernandezfica.cl/pdf/ups/titan/TitanC.pdf but the pannel is not the same one as you can see , I think on the catalogue you can find more usefull information about the features . 

01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 755
Post ID: 15502
Reply to: 15497
Any Sound change while you are useing the unit?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I see, this is typical UPS unit. It would be interesting to see the actual wave shape from this unit. Do you have a scope? Mind you that the Pure Sinewave that they specific in UPS is not the true Sinewave in audio understanding. The 10% of Harmonic Distortions is a bit too high, I would like to see sub 1% but again, not one know how it will relate to Sound. Did you detect any Sound change while you are useing the unit?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
joaco


The Pacific Coast in Chile
Posts 30
Joined on 12-17-2010

Post #: 756
Post ID: 15503
Reply to: 15502
Don´t know if typical but well known .
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy , I don´t think this is a typical ups unit , but a little more advanced than a typical ups . I think typical UPS does not have double-conversion , at least here in Chile . Note that Pure Power claims "via double conversion technology ..." in somewhere . But yes , it is an online UPS with double conversion . Sadly I don´t have a scope now and yes nobody knows how that 10% is related to sound . It is hard to describe every change because they make the whole music sound different . I said "it just sound much more corrrect now" and in terms of sound I think the mid-bass now has come alive , I could not detect this mid-bass before I do not know why but I suspect was the distortion of the bass because mid-bass is very delicate to show up in some styles , but this change has bring articulation to the rest of the notes , also harsh fundamentals and harsh harmonics are gone , I thought the harsh sound was exclusive responsability of the crossover that is very old , and my room acoustics.  but now Im starting to think different . The bass has become a little shy but tighter and it makes space for a clean mid-bass . Voices seems to be more real , and highs seems to extense more , but in a delicate way . Also harmonics decay in a different way than before , I think more slowly , in summary is that for shure it makes a good upgrade in my system , not the type of upgrade that suprise you at the first time but leaves you deaf in 3 hours . But a change that I like to keep . This is just like you are experimenting with pp2000 my point of view , but I would really like to see this unit adapted for audio use .
regards . 
01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 757
Post ID: 15504
Reply to: 15503
Keep observing…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 joaco wrote:
Romy , I don´t think this is a typical ups unit , but a little more advanced than a typical ups . I think typical UPS does not have double-conversion , at least here in Chile . Note that Pure Power claims "via double conversion technology ..." in somewhere . But yes , it is an online UPS with double conversion . Sadly I don´t have a scope now and yes nobody knows how that 10% is related to sound . It is hard to describe every change because they make the whole music sound different . I said "it just sound much more corrrect now" and in terms of sound I think the mid-bass now has come alive , I could not detect this mid-bass before I do not know why but I suspect was the distortion of the bass because mid-bass is very delicate to show up in some styles , but this change has bring articulation to the rest of the notes , also harsh fundamentals and harsh harmonics are gone , I thought the harsh sound was exclusive responsability of the crossover that is very old , and my room acoustics.  but now Im starting to think different . The bass has become a little shy but tighter and it makes space for a clean mid-bass . Voices seems to be more real , and highs seems to extense more , but in a delicate way . Also harmonics decay in a different way than before , I think more slowly , in summary is that for shure it makes a good upgrade in my system , not the type of upgrade that suprise you at the first time but leaves you deaf in 3 hours . But a change that I like to keep . This is just like you are experimenting with pp2000 my point of view , but I would really like to see this unit adapted for audio use .
regards . 

Joaco, when I said typical ups unit I implied of course the on-line units. Google double-conversion UPS or on-line UPS and you will see a great number of very similar units. I like how you describe the impact your regenerator has over your playback. Keep observing what is going on. If your unit as a bypass the absolutely essential thing – then keep observing how different problems with electricity will be eliminated to higher or lower degree by your regenerator. I wish my regenerator had bypass, preferably a remote-condoled bypass, then I would be able to make those observations.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 758
Post ID: 15515
Reply to: 2931
A message.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I know that this post will be lost in the jungles of my site and I am OK with it. Those who follow my site regularly will have a chance to read it not to mention that for me a message is not what heard by other what I managed to express. My message needs to have a preface.

I do not spend too much effort to convince regular readers of my site that there is a lot on audio that I truly hate, I truly do. It is not some kind of blind maddening blind hate but rather a very healthy feeling of disgust to something very specific coming from a quite discriminating on a subject mind. So, among many very specific hates that I can diagnose myself there is one that I call “the hate of singular reason in audio”.

I truly hate when people come to my listening room, like the result, and then run to but the same cartridge I use, or the same driver I use or the same cable elevator I used. On this unfortunate stupidity is a based the entire stupid audio sale: people sell promises and focus promise on a singular pointed element of playback that is under the sale. If I am  a reviewer, or salesperson, or any other marketing pimp and my objectives is to sell a driver, or amplifier or DA converter then I would verbalize or demonstrate a good result and point out that this result is a sole accomplishment of the driver driver, or amp or DAC. The fact any serious result is a combination of many variables that took years to learn how to control, including the listening intelligence of a listener, will be obviously behind the curtain of any sales pitch.

So, why I am riding the subject of my hate of singular reason? Because in this message would like to reiterate the …surprise, surprise… the singular reason of super importance.  It is not hard to guess that the singular reason I am talking about now is the electricity.

 People who read my site might be surprise or even annoyed by the fact that taking my fight with electricity almost personally for the last 15 years. But my awareness operates by facts and the facts are that electricity has more that profound impact to audio but rather a critical impact. A week or so back, I reported that for two days the electricity was so good that it completely overwritten Sound of my playback, taking it to absolutely new horizons. Over the years I remember only 2 other days like this – one in 2008 and one in 2004. They were not just ‘Good electricity days’ but they were the ‘super electricity days’. Now is the main message for you to get some practical perspective.

Over the years you read at my site about tubes and horns, cartridges and DACs, tuners and turntables, drivers and room treatments.  In why way or another all of it has huge effect on the audio results.  However, in my estimation the gain in amplitude of audio quality that got during those few ‘super electricity days’ was much more important then any other audio advancements I ever employed. So, with all seriousness I feel that I would prefer to have a table radio with life-long  ‘super electricity days’ then the whole my audio setup with the electricity as is.

Make your concussions.
Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 759
Post ID: 15518
Reply to: 15515
The extension of message about the “super electricity days”
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I know that this post will be lost in the jungles of my site and I am OK with it. Those who follow my site regularly will have a chance to read it not to mention that for me a message is not what heard by other what I managed to express. My message needs to have a preface.
I do not spend too much effort to convince regular readers of my site that there is a lot on audio that I truly hate, I truly do. It is not some kind of blind maddening blind hate but rather a very healthy feeling of disgust to something very specific coming from a quite discriminating on a subject mind. So, among many very specific hates that I can diagnose myself there is one that I call “the hate of singular reason in audio”.

I truly hate when people come to my listening room, like the result, and then run to but the same cartridge I use, or the same driver I use or the same cable elevator I used. On this unfortunate stupidity is a based the entire stupid audio sale: people sell promises and focus promise on a singular pointed element of playback that is under the sale. If I am  a reviewer, or salesperson, or any other marketing pimp and my objectives is to sell a driver, or amplifier or DA converter then I would verbalize or demonstrate a good result and point out that this result is a sole accomplishment of the driver driver, or amp or DAC. The fact any serious result is a combination of many variables that took years to learn how to control, including the listening intelligence of a listener, will be obviously behind the curtain of any sales pitch.

So, why I am riding the subject of my hate of singular reason? Because in this message would like to reiterate the …surprise, surprise… the singular reason of super importance.  It is not hard to guess that the singular reason I am talking about now is the electricity.

 People who read my site might be surprise or even annoyed by the fact that taking my fight with electricity almost personally for the last 15 years. But my awareness operates by facts and the facts are that electricity has more that profound impact to audio but rather a critical impact. A week or so back, I reported that for two days the electricity was so good that it completely overwritten Sound of my playback, taking it to absolutely new horizons. Over the years I remember only 2 other days like this – one in 2008 and one in 2004. They were not just ‘Good electricity days’ but they were the ‘super electricity days’. Now is the main message for you to get some practical perspective.

Over the years you read at my site about tubes and horns, cartridges and DACs, tuners and turntables, drivers and room treatments.  In why way or another all of it has huge effect on the audio results.  However, in my estimation the gain in amplitude of audio quality that got during those few ‘super electricity days’ was much more important then any other audio advancements I ever employed. So, with all seriousness I feel that I would prefer to have a table radio with life-long  ‘super electricity days’ then the whole my audio setup with the electricity as is.

Make your concussions.
Romy The Cat


In response to my post above I got an email from a site reader:

“ I had a similar experience when the electricity was good. ….  But then things changed and it showed PP2000 is not a complete cure for bad electricity.  “

This is very interesting question.  I think that PP2000 is a good cure if it works properly, unfortunately we have no assurance that it does. In my view the PP2000 helps and if it operates properly then it is better with it then without it as a properly operating PP2000 does not hurt anything. However, when the electricity enters a state of the “super electricity days” then it set all imaginary boundaries where PP2000 is able to operate off. During those “super electricity days” the advancement in sound so great that it as I said above: it overrides ANYTHING that was said and done at this site. The good part is the during the “super electricity days” the PP2000 was in operation and I experienced the last two “super electricity days” with PP2000 powering my playback. It did not inflict damage even during the “super electricity days” – which is superbly commendable but I am sure I would be able to say more if the damn regenerator has manual bypass switch.

Now is the main purpose of the post: can the PP2000 to take any electricity and make the playback to sound like it does during the “super electricity days”? Absolutely not, it can’t.  I think the problem in here not in the PP2000 operation but in the strategic aim of Pure Power as a company. Pure Power makes powers regenerating products but they are not in the mission to address electricity problems.  Their objectives are very limited and their intentions to bring to market a products but not to develop a solution. I am sure that they do not know why PP2000 sounds well but even a good sounding of PP2000 itself is not a cure. No one knows what happened during the “super electricity days” with electricity and what specific property of electricity made the playback to response to it so greatly. I have the electricity measurements during the “super electricity days” and they are absolutely the same as during the “average electricity days”. The biggest problem is that neither Pure Power nor any other companies that are trying to furnish power treating products ask themselves those questions and if they do not them they will not have the answers.

Looking at the satiation and experiencing the result of the last “super electricity days” I feel inspired to reassemble Dima’s Avicenna generator and return back to my experiments with electricity. It shall be more then juts what PP2000 can do and this is what I am interesting in.  I am not looking for to get good stable sound but at this point I am interested to have some kind of mechanism that would assure the stable and predictable “super electricity days” results. It does not exist out there and I doubt that too many people out there would even understand what I am taking about. But it is OK, I am well accustom to this state…

From a technical perspective, if we are talking about strategic approaches, I still feel that Pure Power’s topology of non-magnetics and switching amplification is the direction to go. It is possible that exactly what Pure Power does need to be re-engendered from ground up, addressing all technical compromises that PP2000 has. It is possible that whatever residual problems PP2000 has in fact have absolutely no impact to “super electricity days” results. I know that somebody needs to look into it otherwise we always will be slaves of the electricity caprices.  We might have better results but without aiming for the “super electricity days” results we will not open of even realize the full potential of our playbacks.

In my estimation our playbacks running from averages electricity I have here in Boston operates at 3-5% of abstract sonic quality scale. Use of the devises like PP2000 moves the “quality” to perhaps no more then 10-15%. However, when electricity hit the “super electricity days” then the quality shoots over the roof to the full 100% - the effect very similar to DPoLS. The guy whose quote I used above has in my view a playback with many problems but during the “super electricity days” I am sure he did not experience them. The reason is that during the “super electricity days” the gain of quality so great the anything that we know in audio and recognize in audio as quality ingredients just stop to exist.

The idiots frequently ask me why which all my audio experiences I do not start make money on audio. Well, there is a reason why I call them idiots. There is however a shadow aspect of the answer – I do not see in audio anything worthy my inspiration to make truly difference. However, if I would know the secret of “super electricity days” and would be able to have some kind of devise that would deliver the “super electricity days result” by juts flipping a switch then I would register a corporation at no time.  For now, retuning back to screw with PP2000’s capacitors….

I knew a woman who explained me that in sex she behaves like a well trained dog - if you fuck her once but REALLY GOOD then she do not need to have it dally, rather she will be living by the memories of that night. I am not sure about the sincerity of that girl but conceptually in regard to the quality of sound and “super electricity days” I feel very much in the way how she told me.  The last nigh I listening my Bruckner with PP2000 and a shit loaded extra caps. It was a fine sound but “we’ve always had a Paris”….

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 156
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 760
Post ID: 15519
Reply to: 15518
Battery = x%?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
In my estimation our playbacks running from averages electricity I have here in Boston operates at 3-5% of abstract sonic quality scale. Use of the devises like PP2000 moves the “quality” to perhaps no more then 10-15%. However, when electricity hit the “super electricity days” then the quality shoots over the roof to the full 100%...
I'm assuming when you talk about the PP2000 here, you mean in AC regenerator mode. So what about in battery mode? Is it 100%, i.e. totally equivalent to "super electricity days" in your estimation?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm having a dedicated AC line installed. It would be great if I could measure the success of this project by comparing the new line to the PP2000 battery.

Mani.
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