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12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
beachbum
New Orleans area
Posts 16
Joined on 02-19-2009

Post #: 641
Post ID: 15156
Reply to: 15153
You must not have
fiogf49gjkf0d
steve you must not have heard a real class d amp cause right now as i put this down i have a pair of nuforce ref 18s cranked up and fed off of a early PP 2000 and the music is flowing like fine wine. to bad you cant hear it  but then your to worried about taking a car apart wtf. stop the madness and enjoy the music now cause life is to short. btw i like classic rock and roll and playing now is quicksilver happy trails.



I Think the Volume needs to be Turned Up
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 642
Post ID: 15157
Reply to: 15155
Please, get lost with buttery solutions.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Steve and others, please, stops offering me buttery solutions, I have absolutely zero interest in them. I do not get: are you want just to talk about “something”? Come on, this is not DIY audio site. I use practical and sensible solutions, not just the “conversations on a subject.” There is nothing wrong of cause in the buttery approach, please modify you systems and use buttery but do not offer it to me anymore.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 643
Post ID: 15158
Reply to: 15157
A Solution
fiogf49gjkf0d
You are eating the best food in the world and then complaining that the salt doesn't taste right. Well I simply point you a way to a lifetime supply of the best Dead Sea Salt.

This is an exceedingly practical solution to your problem. And a variation on this is one that I am sure you will eventually use. There is absolutely nothing DIY about using the extremely sophisticated Chevy Volt battery system to run a system.

You already use the battery solution. Do you think the PP's would be good w/o the battery? I am saying the good sound of PP is because of the way the battery was integrated into them. Now they changed the integration, probably to facilitate the technical battery operation, and took away that battery magic.

Steve
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 644
Post ID: 15159
Reply to: 15158
Regarding the PurePower buttery.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Steve, get a little clue in what you are saying as your preaching on this subject of worshiping the butteries become a bit annoying. What battery solution I already use? Ruing playback from battery and the issuers with PurePower buttery related only because in the both cases the word battery has double TT in it. What battery magic? Let stay away from the sacrificial goat logic I am not in the mood for all of this, I will be making dim-witted jokes what everything will be working....

Regarding the PurePower buttery. Even thought the taking buttery off-line might easy to explain the bad sound from AC but at this point I do not think that it is what happens in PurePower. Last night I did some tests with PurePower. I was trying to see if the buttery stay online what the unit run from the AC. It is a bit tricky as I have access only to the buttery and logic that controls it is on the unit motherboard. I do not go for motherboard – that is what PurePower shall be doing instead of doing what they do now.

Anyhow, how to tell that the buttery is on-line when you have access ONLY to buttery? The logic I use was that whatever logic then use to control the AC/buttery operation shall have some delay. So, running the PP2000 from AC I put on the buttery a current probe. On a scope is showed some charging current. Then I activated a powerful 1kW load. At the very fraction of the second what the load is connected the PP2000’s AC supply does not know that higher current is drown and the presumption is that at the very transient moment a fraction of currant would be drown from buttery. So, what I was looking was a momentary current jump from battery and then return of battery currant back to zero after the PP2000’s PS begin to provide the sufficient current. Yes, it was the jump, much smaller than I expected but it was a clear momentary draw from buttery. This is an indication that the buttery is online. There was no current jump in opposite direction when I disengaged the load – that was strange. Anyhow, although it not 100% assurance but it highly likely that PurePower buttery does stay online during the unit run from AC. It is not to mention that to have buttery switched on and off would require a lot of extra logic and an army of mosfets that PurePower that intentionally probably would not undertake.

BTW, I clearly witnessed and clearly measured that the AC charger was acting absolutely wrong and in a way it might explains the sound problems the new PP2000 has.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 645
Post ID: 15160
Reply to: 15159
A clue
fiogf49gjkf0d
"but it highly likely that PurePower buttery does stay online during the unit run from AC"


That's all I am saying also!


My idea is ONLY that PP changed the degree to which the equipment *sees* the AC source instead of the battery source. How isolated the AC charging is from the equipment by the battery that lies between the AC charger and the equipment and thus the differing noise signatures of the generation method. You cant argue that the generation method offers different types of noise into the line can you?


I don't see what is so mystical about the differing noise signature of battery electricity and motor generated electricity possibly being a solution. You are the one who introduced the idea that the normally considered noise of the distorted sine wave is not the answer. I was just responding to that with a very cogent theory of what the noise we are sensitive to might be. If this ends up being right then you can make the dim witted jokes. Until then why not consider it?


Steve



12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 646
Post ID: 15161
Reply to: 15151
More about the last night AC lines vs. PP2000
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Furthermore today to insult the injury it look like my theory about the PP2000 “transparency” to input noise blew in my face as today the wall electricity sounded much better than the from PP2000, that is what I did – disconnected all my regenerators and drove the playback from my dedicated lines.
I would like to ass some comments to what I said above. Yes, last night the wall AC did sound better then my “newly revised” PP2000 running from AC. But that “better” need to be properly understood.

My bare AC line last night sounded very smooth and very round. It was no lower bass as good as my older version PP2000. The entire lower MF was very confused and very badly articulated in compare to my older version of PP2000. There was no “control” over midbass. The older version of PP2000 has phenomenal authoritative control over this region and this control was across all dynamic range. The open AC lines sounded like it had very under-damped bass with some kind of cloud of puffy upperbass that was changing with volume BTW.  However, I still find that the open AC lines sounded better. Why? Because the open AC lines did not has this cocoon of noise that surrounded each single note across enter spectra. This absolutly did not exist in my older version of PP2000 and if it were I would never use the PurePower regenerators.

I do not know, the PurePower people claimed that they do not hear any difference but I very clearly here it from another room. Any single woodwind instrument sounds like a burst pneumatic pipe that discharges gas into fog. How somebody can claim that there is no difference I have no idea.  Anyhow, last night I chose do not use the PP2000 as in that night even the open AC lines did not do anything good but they did less harm that the “revised” PP2000.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 647
Post ID: 15162
Reply to: 15161
The need of a transparent power solution
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am sorry I do not want to pollute the PP2000 thread with battery options.

Right now I am in the process of testing a lot of different comercial amps to see what I will stay with, or which route I will be taking with my system in the near future for amplification,  but I have been having trouble "repeating" the same sound in order to make sensible comparisons.  There are clear winners and losers,  but I also want to listen to each amps strenghts and weakeneses, in order to decide, when multiamping, on what frequency and what driver they will sound best!  So I am listening to amps in a sort of full range mode.  Right now the winner for Upper bass horn is an expensive Solid state amp that does a lot of things well if feeded the right power, but when the power gets polluted it is unbearable: mainly in highs.  I still do not know how "affected" the upper bass range can get when the power goes to hell.  Of course a nice SET amp with 300B tubes is best, from the ones I am comparing with, for midrange compression driver, but the highs are really lacking in extension and dynamics,  even in SPL,  but that can also change a little with power changes. 

I have been influenced a little by Stefano´s SS findings, and some of my own.

This has been a lenghty process filled with desperation,  at the moment I can only make decent comprarisons late at night,  but with a day job and  a 4 year old waking up everyday at 6 am it gets disturbing.

So I need a power solution,  that will not "change" the frequency response of my gear,  I found SS amps are more sensible to Caps on the power lines than tube amps,  but I also found out Coils tend to change response too.  So I cannot make decisions about the tones of  amps with a "colored" line conditioner.  I have seen a lot of comercial line conditioners that are based on the same cap coils systems.

Changes with the power lines have also local aflictions so what could work in London or NYC might not work here.  So the only final soluton I see is a system like the PP2000 that, as I understand, is based on a battery even if it is "recharging" it every second...This is my limited understanding of how it works.

Power lines in my country are not only unreliable as we have power breaks quite often,  but also dangerous for delicate gear since come backs can push higher voltages.  So battery no-breaks are very useful.

Another option for me would be to get rid of power lines and use a small solar system to have the signal processing gear ON all the time and a huge battery bank to power up amps.  Now the systems I have tried with small batteries sounded horrible, with dead dynamics so I am a little lost with few solutions for power lines and looking fearfully for huge battery packs...
12-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 648
Post ID: 15163
Reply to: 15161
The PurePower PP2000, update.
fiogf49gjkf0d
This morning I was listening Messiaen’s Tarantella-Symphony powering system from the bare AC lines. It was far from the sound I would like to have and I decided one more time to insult myself with PP2000. This time I decided to take another PP2000 unit. To my surprise Sound was not right but it was different result then I had the whole week. That picked my curiosity and let me for a couple hours marathon of re-listening all 3 of my PP2000 regenerators.

To my surprise, pleasure and horror they all turned out to be absolutely differently sounding.

PP2000 #1. This one that has been using all week - the updated my old PP2000 (new version of motherboard). This one the absolutely worst – large amount of unpleasant noise, hugely homogenized tone, no bass, no anything – just disaster. It runs fine on batteries with fine sound. This unit I did some very basic measurement and they were fine.

PP2000 #2. I do not get this unit. It does much less, practically no noise and no homogenization. It has some bass and in a way a clear bass. But something is very wrong in this sound, I can’t figure out what. It runs not identical but similar from buttery. I have no idea what is wrong with it, I did not measure it and I prefer do not use it.

PP2000 #3. This is a lucky bustard.  It has practically no noise, no homogenization and it highlights the tones almost as good as my old PP2000 did. It has that precision, discrimination and authority in tonal and dynamic accents for which I so love the PP2000. It has a bit too shallow very lower bass and a bit general brightness that I did not remember the old unit had. It is not a lot but it there. It runs from buttery a very slightly better – picking the lower bass in partially getting rid of the business at HF.  The way how this unit sound from butteries is how the properly functioning PP2000 shall sound.

The PP2000 #3 I think is useable, the first two units I am afraid not. I would like to have my old PP2000 back then I will have 2 find sounding PP2000 hopefully if PurePower will fix whatever is wrong with the new revision then I will get my third unit. Since the all so not even it is possible that the secret in some kind of calibration or adjustment that might be not done properly at PurePower. I did ask multiple times before they shipped them if the tested them and they told that they did. I did not measure my PP2000 #2 and PP2000 #3 but even my worst PP2000 (#1) measures fine. So, go figures that are responsible for sound in those units. If PurePower have more interest about subject of good sound and how to get it predictable then the situation might be a great opportunity to learn about it. Unfortunately it looks that PurePower more care about damage management. Boring and contra-productive.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 649
Post ID: 15167
Reply to: 15163
The PurePower 2000. The final update so far.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
This morning I was listening Messiaen’s Tarantella-Symphony powering system from the bare AC lines. It was far from the sound I would like to have and I decided one more time to insult myself with PP2000. This time I decided to take another PP2000 unit. To my surprise Sound was not right but it was different result then I had the whole week. That picked my curiosity and let me for a couple hours marathon of re-listening all 3 of my PP2000 regenerators.

To my surprise, pleasure and horror they all turned out to be absolutely differently sounding.

PP2000 #1. This one that has been using all week - the updated my old PP2000 (new version of motherboard). This one the absolutely worst – large amount of unpleasant noise, hugely homogenized tone, no bass, no anything – just disaster. It runs fine on batteries with fine sound. This unit I did some very basic measurement and they were fine.

PP2000 #2. I do not get this unit. It does much less, practically no noise and no homogenization. It has some bass and in a way a clear bass. But something is very wrong in this sound, I can’t figure out what. It runs not identical but similar from buttery. I have no idea what is wrong with it, I did not measure it and I prefer do not use it.

PP2000 #3. This is a lucky bustard.  It has practically no noise, no homogenization and it highlights the tones almost as good as my old PP2000 did. It has that precision, discrimination and authority in tonal and dynamic accents for which I so love the PP2000. It has a bit too shallow very lower bass and a bit general brightness that I did not remember the old unit had. It is not a lot but it there. It runs from buttery a very slightly better – picking the lower bass in partially getting rid of the business at HF.  The way how this unit sound from butteries is how the properly functioning PP2000 shall sound.

The PP2000 #3 I think is useable, the first two units I am afraid not. I would like to have my old PP2000 back then I will have 2 find sounding PP2000 hopefully if PurePower will fix whatever is wrong with the new revision then I will get my third unit. Since the all so not even it is possible that the secret in some kind of calibration or adjustment that might be not done properly at PurePower. I did ask multiple times before they shipped them if the tested them and they told that they did. I did not measure my PP2000 #2 and PP2000 #3 but even my worst PP2000 (#1) measures fine. So, go figures that are responsible for sound in those units. If PurePower have more interest about subject of good sound and how to get it predictable then the situation might be a great opportunity to learn about it. Unfortunately it looks that PurePower more care about damage management. Boring and contra-productive.

OK, now the situation clearer a bit. Last night I listened my 3 PurePower 2000 units, my analyses of this sound is in the post above. This morning I measured them and put everything in perspective.

A few words before I lay down the facts. Over the last week I got a number of signals from PurePower that I shall not defame their products. Their marketing director Bob Rapoport – a certifiable idiots – informed me that my finding about PurePower 2000 are “based on sheer fantasy”, that he “would bet that in a double blind AB test I would never know the difference” and that I shall “take down the entire thread about PurePower

from your blog” because it “this is a hobby to you, but its my livelihood”.  Their technical people dodge my calls. They claims that they here no difference of any kind between old and new units and between PP2000 running from AC and buttery.  This is very alarming and my odder to demonstrate it to them, even more - my proposal to give my facility and my engineering rescores for their disposal to find the problem – all left without answer. The PurePower owner has, who looks like offsite now days, has more rational position. He also is concern about me “defaming” his company product. He diplomatically implies that “we are interested is solving your problem”, which makes me surprised: my problems? Really?

The whole point is that the problem I am experiencing is not my problems but purely the PurePower, or more accurately the problems with PurePower 2000 operation.

Think logically: even if I was some kind of idiot and was absolutely misused the PP2000 then how this might explain that rotating PP2000 units in absolutely the same connecting and loading configuration produce 3 drastically different results from absolute garbage to near acceptable, still none of them produce good result as it was with former  production run. Even with my presumption of my partial deafness the logic would suggest that something is not right but not with me but with the regenerators. Ironically, no one before noted that my comments about the PP2000 were inaccurate, quite in contrary.

The most important thing is that what interests I have to report negatively about the PurePower units? The whole point of my report and my journey for a proper power device is that it is not exposed to any agenda, to any respect or disrespect to anything, even foe my own observation. The only mental schema I have is to find a devise that would produce the best good for Sound electricity. If it affects somebody sales number in negative or positive way then I do not really care and I am absolutely blind to those facts.

Anyhow, as I said above I think I know what the problem the new PP2000 might have. Well, it is not knowledge but rather guess. Let me to present the facts, you make your own concussions.

First let talk about the PP2000 #3. The one that has the best sound among my 3 units. It does NOT sound right – it way brighter than the older PP2000 was but it is semi-usable as a temporary solution, contrary to the rest of my PP2000. Let compare the new PP2000 #3 with my old PP2000.

Here are both of them running from AC (revision 2008 first, then 2010)

Then here are both of them running from butteries (revision 2008 first, then 2010)

In all cases they are loaded to the very same load. We can clearly see that the buttery operation is virtually identical and sonically they are in my view are identical as well. The AC operation has some a few kHz noise injected into 60Hz cycle something that I two years back called “fuzziness”. If we compare the 2008 and 2010 fuzziness then it is very obvious that that the 2010 fuzziness is MUCH better lover amplitude, even spread across wider area. So, of the PP revision of 2010 is so much better than rev. 2008 then why the rev. 2010 sonically so bright?

To understand the answers to this question you need to understand one of the main consents of my audio believe, something that I very aggressively use foe my playback design. Facts are not causality, fact are juts outcomes presented to the realm of know. If distortions are facts then we do not hear distortion but we hear the mechanisms that course the distortions. We do not fight with distortions as they are irrelevant. However, by tuning and fixing the poisoning effects that cause the distortions we affect true results. So, it is obvious that some of noise coming through the regenerator, it might be AC noise of it might be (and most likely) the PP2000’s own noise affect the unit output. How can we say that this affect is negative if in 2008 it has very minor (if any) negative effect to sound and in 2010 the sound is much worth but the measurable output noise is much less? Again, “we do not hear distortion but we hear the mechanisms that course the distortions”. We need to find the mechanism that creates those distortions. If we do then we will have answer that we are looking for. The guess of my engineers to whom I asked this question was that DC-DC converter (that does not work when unit runs from buttery) produce some ground, or air or some kind of other noise (that all packed in the box very tight) that penetrate the output stage of final amp or the oscillator circuit. It looks like DC-DC converter that bust 72V battery to 165V, the oscillating circuit and the output stages are fine but as soon the DC-DC converter drive voltage to 72 and rectifiers are activated they somehow leak noise output stages.

OK, let talk about the PP2000 #2. This is the unit sound of which I did not like last night as was not able to figure out what I did not like. This is pure BS, sorry PurePower people but you absolutely shall not be doing this. The negate wave of the sinusoid is horizontally clipped, which is an indication that the internal amp runs at unofficial voltage. The DC offset regulator can change the depth of the clipping but it is not able to eliminate it. Also, the entire sinusoid is very shaky, as I look at the scope it trembles like at the time of earthquake.  Something is very mis-regulated with this unit and in my mind it shall not be ships out to customer. Interesting that nowadays the PurePower regenerators are shipped with certificates of testing. I did not even look at them as I am convinced that they are fine. So, ether PurePower fakes the resting results or then test wrong things. How else one would explain that a unit with clipped wave would be send out to the field.

The OK, let talk about the PP2000 #1. This is absolute mystery. It has virtually the same output and the same wave as the PP2000 #3 but absolutely different sound. This type of the thing MUST be researched in order to fine the prime what makes electricity to sound bad. That is execrably what I would like PurePower to do. Let pretend that I use too slow scope and juts do not see the UHF oscillations. Let pretend that rectifiers produce switching noise (and this thing goes across anything) that got some penetration to inputs of the class D amps and shaking by feedback the whole output stage is in 700-800kH oscillations. Did you see how oscillations in high mu tubes kills all sound, might it be something like this in PP2000? Absolutely, it might be anything! And this searching for this “something” shall be what PurePower shall de and do not blame the whistle blowers that they “slandered my product in a public forum for no good reason except your mis-diagnosis and rush to judgement”. Frankly speaking I am very much offended with this feedbag. I was under impression that my and PurePower goals are the same – to have better devise to deal with electricity problems. If PurePower would claim innocents but the fact that they sold 100s of those units and everyone love them then it: 1) would not fly in my books 2) not true.   I can continue this explanation if PurePower insists.

Anyhow, I still am waiting for the PurePower response. It is very possible that there is no design true difference between PP2000 from 2008 and PP2000 from 2010.  The differences in sound might be explained by “normal” production differences of PP2000 units. PurePower need to found out what is responsible for of their regenerator Sound and learn how to calibrate PP2000 in order it has default sonic characteristic. The do NOT do it now and it looks like sonic performance of their units are absolutely random.

In the end I need to say that I am tired from this whole situation I am tired deal with company where customers want better and more stable resets then manufactures can furnish. I still feel that USP devise with class D amps made specifically for audio purpose is the way to go but at this point if I know another alternative of the same product then I would try it.  The PurePower is very close to where they need to be – their PP2000 DC operation is the ultimate that answers all questions. They are so close from having the “right product” but they do not make the final move. I have no idea what they behave in this way.  A good consultant-designer would within a few weeks find all design and technological problems that might PP2000 and devise a set of calibration and testing procedures. Why PurePower does not go this way? Because the people stupid enough to be satisfied by random results? Well, I do not.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 650
Post ID: 15168
Reply to: 15167
My PP2000 unit
fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't have a scope, so can't measure the output of my particular unit. However, if I were to guess, I would say that my unit probably falls alongside your #2 unit. When run from AC, the bass disappears and the sound becomes bright and edgy, to the point of being unlistenable. From battery though, the sound is full and harmonically rich - very, very nice indeed. Quite frankly, you would have to be deaf not to be able to hear the difference.

Having said that, when I first received my unit, I had it connected to the system in my study. During an email exchange, I agreed with Bob Rappaport that there seemed to be no difference in sound between AC and battery. However, I will contact PP again and let them know that with furhter listening in a more resolving system, I now believe there is a big difference between AC and battery.

I'm not sure, but perhaps if more PP2000 owners voice their opinions, PP will stop living in denial.

Mani.
12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 651
Post ID: 15170
Reply to: 15168
About best, default, repeatable and predictable result…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 manisandher wrote:
I don't have a scope, so can't measure the output of my particular unit.
I do not think that scope is necessary. Pay attention that my Units #1 and #3 have very fine scope outputs that is not related to their sound. A scope is something that just allow to see obvious problems but does not say anything about Sound.

 manisandher wrote:
However, if I were to guess, I would say that my unit probably falls alongside your #2 unit. When run from AC, the bass disappears and the sound becomes bright and edgy, to the point of being unlistenable. From battery though, the sound is full and harmonically rich - very, very nice indeed. Quite frankly, you would have to be deaf not to be able to hear the difference.
This is the problems. I do not know where it falls alongside. Your unit might falls alongside with # 5 or #222, or to have own set of sonic problems and we do not know what is responsible for those problems. Do not forgets also that your unit is 220V and your DC-DC converts need to punch voltage higher then 160V as US domestic units most likely do. If anything then from your description of sound most likely falls alongside with my unit #3 – “bass disappears and the sound becomes bright and edgy”. You find it unlistenable but I in my comment above called it as “semi-usable as a temporary solution”. I need to explain why: I run 7-channel system with ability to set volume of each channel separately. So, last night I celebrated Macondo to run from new PP2000 – I shifted the entire balance down, compensating the upper range nose that PP2000 look like produces. This made my sound listenable, now where I would like it to be but listenable as a temporary solution.  BTW, the way how you describe the sound of your unit running from butteries it was how my old PP2000 sounded from AC lines. Yes, there was some difference between my old unit ran from AC and from buttery but it was near even close to what it today and it was very-very-very minor. I did bring in my old house people and demonstrated to them that the difference between running from AC and from buttery is insignificant. Ironically, my first PP1050 from 2007 had no difference between running from AC and buttery all.

 manisandher wrote:
Having said that, when I first received my unit, I had it connected to the system in my study. During an email exchange, I agreed with Bob Rappaport that there seemed to be no difference in sound between AC and battery…
What do you do taking with Bob Rappaport about sound. Bob Rappaport is a pimp who moves boxes and counts money. To talk with him about sound is like talking about love with a very cheap prostitute who sucks for $5 in railroad toilets. Bob Rappaport is a sales clerk. An Hi-Fi sales person is in a scale of human values is something in the middle between what you blow out of your nose during a cold season and what you flow out of your ass after you eat non-fresh food…

 manisandher wrote:
I'm not sure, but perhaps if more PP2000 owners voice their opinions, PP will stop living in denial.
I do not think that it is necessary. I do not need to collect opinions I know the truth. PurePower do not need to collect opinions, including from me. The need to produce a product that has default operational sound and the made of the product shall be assurance of default, repeatable and predictable result. Otherwise it is a pure BS.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-11-2010

Post #: 652
Post ID: 15171
Reply to: 15167
PurePower: a model of corporate hypocrisy
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

A few words before I lay down the facts. Over the last week I got a number of signals from PurePower that I shall not defame their products. Their marketing director Bob Rapoport – a certifiable idiots – informed me that my finding about PurePower 2000 are “based on sheer fantasy”, that he “would bet that in a double blind AB test I would never know the difference” and that I shall “take down the entire thread about PurePower

from your blog” because it “this is a hobby to you, but its my livelihood”.  Their technical people dodge my calls. They claims that they here no difference of any kind between old and new units and between PP2000 running from AC and buttery.  This is very alarming and my odder to demonstrate it to them, even more - my proposal to give my facility and my engineering rescores for their disposal to find the problem – all left without answer. The PurePower owner has, who looks like offsite now days, has more rational position. He also is concern about me “defaming” his company product. He diplomatically implies that “we are interested is solving your problem”, which makes me surprised: my problems? Really?

The whole point is that the problem I am experiencing is not my problems but purely the PurePower, or more accurately the problems with PurePower 2000 operation.

Rgs, Romy the Cat



Hi Romy:

A long time ago, I contributed to this thread when I questioned the unfortunate tendency of some to treat batteries as a cul-de-sac in the audiophile's quest for a power supply which is clean, efficient and reliable. In the light of what has transpired since, and in spite of your own often stated refusal to consider batteries as a potential solution to your power problems ( I did say that the demands of your playback would make such an installation very onerous and rather difficult to implement), I suggest that you forget your natural prejudices and at least try such a solution, maybe just with the source equipment to start with. I know you will have an apoplexy that I dared mention the 'b' word again, ban me to the netherworlds and from your site, qualify the whole notion as preposterous, question my ability to read and understand fairly unambiguous statements in simple english , but here I am, standing (barely) and saying you ought to try batteries.

Now about PurePower. When PurePower expresses concerns that you might be defaming their company products, I presume that they are referring to trade libel law as it is applied in the courts of Massachusetts. So I went on their website to see if there were any claims made about their products which are contradicted by your own experience with their products. Whilst doing this, I came across a a long list of quotes that they used from various individuals and scrolling down the page I come across a quote from you (and clearly attributed to you):

PurePower™ 2000

"I appreciate audio devices that instead of demonstrating their own qualities, force you to think about sound. The new PurePower 2000 is turning to be such a device. I have so many ideas and so many thoughts with the sound the 2000 produces that I truly surprised myself. Today, spending many hours with my new regenerator and listening to music, I could not hold myself from laughing as many times I caught myself acknowledging that this or that aspect of the sound was exactly how I always insisted it should be. It was like being an orphan and suddenly discovering one's own parents

Somehow the PP2000 surgically removes all negative manifestations that are typically associated with bad electricity but keeps everything else absolutely un-affected.

After spending those 4 days with the PurePower 2000, I suggest that they adopt my proposal for a new slogan: "We do not 'f ***-up' your Sound." As far as my familiarity with power treatment devices is concerned, I know of no other power company or product that might be entitled to use this slogan.

It looks like the PurePower 2000 resolves the problem with electricity once and for good..."

 Roman Bessnow, www.romythecat.com

The above is lifted from their page entitled 'Reviews and Opinions' So we have here, for our common delectation this most debased sort of modern corporate entity, the type of vulture that will prowl the web looking for crumbs of praise from all possible parties, exploit these to serve its most undiluted commercial interests, but threaten legal action the moment one dares say something disparaging about the company's products, even if backed up by a desire to help them get it right. It makes my soul shudder at the sheer gall of it. I cannot tell you how nauseous this kind of hypocritical behaviour makes me feel and how I would love to see PurePowerAPS' lawyers cringe under the scrutiny of any court. The best lube in the world would not protect them from getting what will be the eventual and sure outcome of such a case. From what you write about Bob Rappaport above, it sounds as if this might well suit the gentleman's inclinations.

I read their marketing spiel, their technical claims and their product literature, and whilst it is obvious the company makes many claims of utterly reliable performance and exemplary service, it is clear there are several documented instances where its quality control failed and service was less than exemplary. Actually the service provided by PurePower is so below par that how they have managed to stay around is a complete mystery to me. They fully deserve to vanish without a trace and I can only wish there was another product from a more responsive company, that genuinely understood something about sound, that would do the job.

Romy, this is science and PP does not have a monopoly over a perfectly capable solution to our mains problems. It is only a matter of time before this other solution is found. It is a shame that to some extent you got 'captured,' whether you will openly admit to it or not, as you clearly needed their assistance to sort the flaws with your units. I hope somehow you find your solution soon whether from PP or elsewhere so you can vent your spleen freely about this utterly miserable little company.

Regards
Rakesh

12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 653
Post ID: 15172
Reply to: 15170
Only here...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Only on this website do I find myself laughing and crying reading the same post.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
PurePower do not need to collect opinions, including from me. The need to produce a product that has default operational sound and the made of the product shall be assurance of default, repeatable and predictable result.
Yes, but this is difficult when the true cause and effect of AC towards good/bad sound is not understood... by anyone.

And until it is, I will continue to enjoy listening to the PP2000 via its battery. Of course, this is very far from ideal, and not what I paid my hard-earned cash on. But, it provides me with good sound for a duration considerably longer than a whole album - something I can live with for now.

Mani.
12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-11-2010

Post #: 654
Post ID: 15173
Reply to: 15172
What do Bose and Bob Rapoport have in common?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy:

After reading your slightly less than flattering portrait of Bob Rapoport, marketing director of PurePower, I felt compelled to have a look into the guy's background. This is so completely priceless! If you follow the link below to the guy's own website, this is what you can read about his first steps in audio, and I think no further commentary is necessary really.

Extract from http://www.trgmarketing.com/abouttrg.html:

Bob’s career began in 1971, when he sat at the foot of the master, Dr. Amar Bose, and learned the art of selling speaker systems. It was this experience that taught him many of the lessons he applies today.

One cannot help wondering what else he learnt whilst sitting at the foot of the master.

Regards
Rakesh
12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 655
Post ID: 15174
Reply to: 15171
You sound too sane for this site.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 oxric wrote:
I read their marketing spiel, their technical claims and their product literature, and whilst it is obvious the company makes many claims of utterly reliable performance and exemplary service, it is clear there are several documented instances where its quality control failed and service was less than exemplary. Actually the service provided by PurePower is so below par that how they have managed to stay around is a complete mystery to me. They fully deserve to vanish without a trace and I can only wish there was another product from a more responsive company, that genuinely understood something about sound, that would do the job.

Romy, this is science and PP does not have a monopoly over a perfectly capable solution to our mains problems. It is only a matter of time before this other solution is found. It is a shame that to some extent you got 'captured,' whether you will openly admit to it or not, as you clearly needed their assistance to sort the flaws with your units. I hope somehow you find your solution soon whether from PP or elsewhere so you can vent your spleen freely about this utterly miserable little company.

Rakesh, you sound too sane but I still disagree with you. I even disagree with myself while I am disagreeing with you but the rational for my disagreeing I think deserved to be expressed.

I have absolutely no interest or concern about PurePower or make judgment about them. I care about performance of the PP2000, primary as its performance in my home but there are secondary, less important reasons as well. Unfortunately (and this in ONLY in my eyes) the PP does have a monopoly over a perfectly capable solutions to my mains problems. It hard to explain, Rakesh, but if you spend as many years as I did to fight electricity and if you heard the sound of properly operating PP2000 (the way how my  PP2000 was for the last year or today PP2000 from buttery) then you would feel that it was “it”. Sure, PurePower has no monopoly but from what I have seen PurePower is the closest from anybody else to a perfect sound from their regenerators. Of course I did explore a lot of different manufactures who does the similar and was looking if I can jump in their wagon.  I feel that PurePower are the closest to the “promised land”.

There is something else. I did write it many time that I do not think that PurePower know what they do and that sonic results they get are accidental. The problem is that no one know what is going on with electricity and it is a very complex subject. PurePower need to invest some efforts to investigate what is going on wrong but I do not think that they have recourses to do it. I have a number of very serious engineers on my end who observe the progress and who laugh on the situation and they say that this BS is possible only in Hi-Fi…

I do not know where we go from here. I have some clear ideas and some very specific experiments that need to be done with PP2000 but I would like the test were endorsed and underwritten by PurePower. When I spoke with this technical person I am not sure he understood what I was taking about and as now it looks like they “understaffed to handle your phone calls”.  I still would like PurePower to get PP2000 to the point what it will be useful, useful by me. I am not manisandher and I will not use the PP2000 from buttery only – I find it ridicules.  So, I got hooked on the sound that PP2000 might deliver – I admit it and I do admit that my masochism is voluntary. Trust me however; I know what I do even if I do wrong things.

At present time the concern need to be not about my physiological profile and not about PurePower BBB reputation but about the health of the PP2000 unit. The PurePower does not express about it as much concern as I do – that is the problem.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 656
Post ID: 15176
Reply to: 15174
Simple solution
fiogf49gjkf0d
"I do not know where we go from here. I have some clear ideas and some very specific experiments that need to be done with PP2000 but I would like the test were endorsed and underwritten by PurePower"

"I have a number of very serious engineers on my end who observe the progress and who laugh on the situation and they say that this BS is possible only in Hi-Fi…"


I see a simple solution, If PurePower doesnt know what to look for, you go ahead and FIX the problem, with your engineers on your end,  then you can pay for all the costs of THE FIX selling your own "Romyzed PurePower",  This is a win-win solution:  PurePower continues to sell their their systems....to you, and you sell them for an overprice after applying this FIX.

You dont even have to get your hands dirty,  get in touch with one or more of those modders that "modify" Cd Players, lots of them around to have a pick, and let them do the FIX to the units for you and even send them off....you just collect the money!

Or you can just fix YOUR own PP2000 and leave us to our batteries and caps and coils  ;-)


12-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 657
Post ID: 15177
Reply to: 15176
Sorry, I did not lick the Bose’s foot ….
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
"I do not know where we go from here. I have some clear ideas and some very specific experiments that need to be done with PP2000 but I would like the test were endorsed and underwritten by PurePower"

"I have a number of very serious engineers on my end who observe the progress and who laugh on the situation and they say that this BS is possible only in Hi-Fi…"


I see a simple solution, If PurePower doesnt know what to look for, you go ahead and FIX the problem, with your engineers on your end,  then you can pay for all the costs of THE FIX selling your own "Romyzed PurePower",  This is a win-win solution:  PurePower continues to sell their their systems....to you, and you sell them for an overprice after applying this FIX.

You dont even have to get your hands dirty,  get in touch with one or more of those modders that "modify" Cd Players, lots of them around to have a pick, and let them do the FIX to the units for you and even send them off....you just collect the money!

Or you can just fix YOUR own PP2000 and leave us to our batteries and caps and coils  ;-)
Jorge, I have absolutely no interest to sell anything or to own anything that is tradable in Audio.  I did consider making my own regenerator and it would be very similar topologically to what PurePower does but designed with respect to the actual results. The problem with this approach is that it is a major investment in time and money and it will need to be reimbursed – or converted into a commercial product. I have absolutely no desire to have anything commercial in audio.  I do I feel that it is less expensive for me to deal with PurePower as they are very close to what I would like to have.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,072
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 658
Post ID: 15180
Reply to: 15167
Pure Power 2000: trying to think logically.
fiogf49gjkf0d

OK, here are my thoughts for today. Below is a very simplified schematic of Pure Power 2000 regenerator.  I do not know if it is, but I think that it is how it works. I do not think that it is different from any other on-line generator. At the link below under the bottom of the first page is a typical operation of such units:

http://www.armspower.com/Products/Powerware/Powerware9330/Powerware9330%20Double%20Conversion%20Online%20Toplogy.pdf

If to simplify everything for PP2000 case then we end up with this:

PP2000_ simplified_schema.GIF

What we know about the new revision of PP2000 – we know that powering from battery the unit works fine. That means that the yellow past of my diagram are out of suspicion for bad operation. However, when we engage the white elements of my diagram then sound turn shit and it looks like it turn shit not equally on all units. So, I think it would be reasonable to talk about some kind interference that input stages inflict to outputs. What kind interference it might be and the most important how it get propagated to output stages? I think it might be via grounds, air or via wires.  I have no control and no way to test grounds and air theories – this what Pure Power company must do nowadays but I think I can make some tests about the wires propagation interference.

The only wide how the white and yellow sections of PP2000 are connected is the battery (it would be nice if Pure Power would confirm it). So, let see what battery does what unit runs from DC and from AC

APS_Purepower_ButteryNoise.JPG

The first part of the image the PP2000 runs unit from itself and the second one is what AC is coming in. We see that some AC noise is coming on the negative side what the charger activated. You can get the frequency of the noise – it is 20uSec per square. Also the amplitude of the noise is very low – it is 0.02V per square, so in my mind the charger might works fine. I do not think that exist any higher frequency noise (I use slow 100MHz scope) as this all switching devised that works at 20-30kHz and would be not transparent for any noise over 10-15kHz. So, the interference between AC and DC operation is very low, not to mention that after first DC to DC up-converter it most likely shunted with a large cap that would ground all noise and interference. However, all low voltage logic (and it is a LOT and complex logic) is driven directly from buttery and who knows, might be this minute noise on the negative side makes the low voltage logic to go crazy what it feels it. So, we need to equalize the pane and to make the low voltage logic to see DC identically as it sees when the init runs from buttery. Then, if we still have the problem with sound it will be 100% assurance that the very little noise that butteries get during AC operation is not the problem responsible for sound.

I wish the Pure Power be with me on it as it looks like it is my own problem, anyhow…. My guys advised me to shunt the PP2000 butteries by a pre-charged, large capacitor with a series choke. They explained that butteries have high internal impedance at HF and my external HF filter will deal with all noise.  I need to buy 250,000uF at 100V and try to make the experiment. It would be great if that will be the reason as to address anything else it need to be look on the PP2000 motherboard – something that I do not do. BTW, it would be great if Pure Power make this as the have all equipment setup for those experiments… But it is only if they want results….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 115
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 659
Post ID: 15182
Reply to: 15180
Pp2000 power cord
fiogf49gjkf0d
Have been intently watching this discussion while on vacation. Returned last night and turned on system and one of my three  units was given off a very low intensity buzz into the speakers. Detached the power cord and it went away and on replacing the cord all was fine.
Later in the evening after the system warmed up I listened for a few minutes to a recording and then disconnected the power cords to all three units and relistened. While there was a slight improvement in the mid bass and clarity of the midrange, it was not at the level that Romy has been discussing with his system.
Interestingly, when I reconnected the AC cord to the same unit, the buzz reoccurred would only go away if I played with the power cord. As these were supplied with the unit I'm wondering if it might be the cord or the unit's IEC plug which is causing the problem.Was too tired after my plane ride from Europe to experiment further, but you may want to look into this as the possible problem.

Bill Gaw
12-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
maxzimum
Posts 9
Joined on 07-06-2009

Post #: 660
Post ID: 15183
Reply to: 15182
Diagram
fiogf49gjkf0d
The PP has the words "winstream" printed on the PCB. I assume they're the ones that make the units for PP.
Here's a diagram from their page:
http://www.winstream.com.tw/products/RHC-2.htm

Send them a mail. They probably know more than Purepower about the units.

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