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  »  New  Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...  A typical convention......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     123  943205  07-16-2004
  »  New  Problems with horns: mid-range horns...  First or second order for 1" driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  73786  07-21-2004
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  »  New  It’s mad, mad, mad... electricity...  It is great to hear from Clark...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1651  6201359  10-12-2006
  »  New  Make Your Own Horns..  Texture and Consistency...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  21848  01-26-2007
06-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 4593
Reply to: 4593
Musique Concrete horns
Hi Romy,

Got my new Le Cleach tractrix horns (320hz) for the Vitavox S2's.  I'm x-ing over at 600hz with 2nd order 12db/Octave which I know is barbaric for  you but it is all I have for the moment.  With the new horns the S2s are putting out much more HF than with my old tin can rectangular models, though the HF is not as clear as I would like. Imaging is a real problem for the moment but I don't really care as the sound is fantastic.  It is the very stringy cellos with appropriate dynamics, vocals have plenty of subtlety, I really like the sound. I will have to rework my midbass, plans are already under way there.  The horns are indeed made of concrete, and the constructor had a custom throat adaptor made for my Vitavox's to screw into (the throat of the horn itself matches perfectly the S2, he didn't make an adaptor to fit standard 2¨ or 1.4¨horn...).  I don't plan on using tweeter for time being, though eventually after addressing midbass issue I wil l look at water drops.  Thanks for your help,  R Weissman

06-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 4594
Reply to: 4593
A wild and racey mustang...

 RonyWeissman wrote:
Got my new Le Cleach tractrix horns (320hz) for the Vitavox S2's.  I'm x-ing over at 600hz with 2nd order 12db/Octave which I know is barbaric for you but it is all I have for the moment.

Why is it necessary barbaric? I do not follow the logic…. Your 600hz with 12db/Octave looks like a rational point for 320hz horn. You will eventually play it a little up and down it all depends of how Cleach’s will handle it  and what type of crossover you will select but I feel that you are not far from where you should be.

 RonyWeissman wrote:
With the new horns the S2s are putting out much more HF than with my old tin can rectangular models, though the HF is not as clear as I would like.

Can you define what do you mean “HF is not as clear as I would like”? Do your S2 gaps are sterile and cleaned? What kind diaphragm you use, most likely with metal sustention if you cross it at 600Hz? Does diaphragm is aligned properly? Do not forget that improperly aligned S2 cone will have sharp tone with no bloom at lower MF – do not over-tight those 6 alignment bolts – never a good idea in vintage compression drivers. Generally if you have with 320hz horn have too much HF then it is a good sign. Also, I do feel that Le Cleach might be very slightly brighter then Tractrix as they, it look like are very slightly shorter. One more thing: do not point the horns to own fate but point them at 10-15 degree to your outer shoulder… The metal sustention cone is VERY “atrocious” and the new metal suspended S2 might sound like a unridden horse….

 RonyWeissman wrote:
I will have to rework my midbass, plans are already under way there.

Make sue that whatever driver and the topology of the bass enclosure you will select it should be able to sound more or less confidently to ~800 if you go with the second order.

 RonyWeissman wrote:
I don't plan on using tweeter for time being…

I would not worry about it for now. Stay with the naked S2 unit YOU FEEL that you grew up from that sound and until YOU IDENTIFY TO YOURSELF that there is a room for something else above S2. Then, only then experiment with tweeter.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-14-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 4599
Reply to: 4594
S2s going for a check-up.
Romy Wrote:  Can you define what do you mean “HF is not as clear as I would like”?

The HF sound is very quick and weighty , which can be quite nice on classical guitar for examlpe, but the tone is not clear enough, meaning for example cymbal attacks don't have enough metallic ring to them, nor enough bloom, not scary enough.


Romy Wrote:  Do your S2 gaps are sterile and cleaned? What kind diaphragm you use, most likely with metal sustention if you cross it at 600Hz? Does diaphragm is aligned properly? Do not forget that improperly aligned S2 cone will have sharp tone with no bloom at lower MF – do not over-tight those 6 alignment bolts – never a good idea in vintage compression drivers.

I have metal diaphragms.  There is a local company that specializes in vintage compression driver cleaning/aligning etc., I will send them in for a check-up, can't hurt.  It is true that occasionally i notice a little sharpness in female vocals.

Thanks
R Weissman
06-14-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 4600
Reply to: 4599
I know, the life sucks with S2 driver….

 RonyWeissman wrote:
The HF sound is very quick and weighty , which can be quite nice on classical guitar for examlpe, but the tone is not clear enough, meaning for example cymbal attacks don't have enough metallic ring to them, nor enough bloom, not scary enough.

The naked S2 with metal suspension goes up to 12.5KHz. Whatever it does it rolls quite sharp at 12.5KHz and it will not “die in ambianic HF infamy”. The Vitavox HF limit however should not affect musicality. The S2’ 12.5KHz are very fast and very dynamic. It is not Altec/JBL/TAD’s 12.5KHz. Also, the S2’s (metal suspension) 12.5KHz have the S2’s idiosyncratic “beneficial resonances” that makes it very different from many other drivers… The “metallic ring” that you describe might me easily modulated with a tweeter, there are some good expansive options, but I would not be looking in that direction for now if I were you. A good, metal suspension S2, even with it 12.5KHz should be sufficiently interesting sonically.

Here are a few things to consider from my experiences:

1) S2 with metal suspension is superbly sensitive to the quality of signal. Much more sensitive you expect of wish
2) S2 with metal suspension is superbly sensitive to electricity. Of other drivers juts begin to sound gray and compressed with bad electricity the metal suspended S2 increases in geometrical progression the amplitude of its “beneficial resonances”. With good SET and good electricity the “beneficial resonances” is juts a slight “kink” over the S2’s Sound. With bad electricity the S2’s “beneficial resonances” sound more like metallic dirt was spread the entire gap.
3) Do not forget to toe-off the S2 with metal suspension.
4) You might try to aquaplass the S2’s cone or to use many of the aquaplass’s substitutes.
5) I did not try year but I do feel that the Budanisatrion might be useful to try on the metal suspended S2

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=4206

In the end I do not think that you experience any problems with your Driver and you have just have wrong expectations. Take any real tweeter of your chose and LOW-PASS it at 12.5KHz with 24dB per octave. You will have the very same limitation that you attribute to S2… one with some differences. With the low-passed tweeter you will be much more frustrated sonically as the S2 has “own weird puss in it” as Tony Sopranos use to say….


 RonyWeissman wrote:
I have metal diaphragms.  There is a local company that specializes in vintage compression driver cleaning/aligning etc., I will send them in for a check-up, can't hurt.

It never heard but I have witness as two California and Seattle specialists working on S2 were enable to do what was necessary - I hope you will be luckier. Still I have hard time to believe that any “mechanic” out there will align cones.  They will do it juts up to the point of “hear no auditable defects” but I hardly believe that they will peruse lower distortions or better tone. BTW, if he has that options then ask him to re-chard the magnates. It cost nothing (~$20 per driver) but it never hurt.

 RonyWeissman wrote:
It is true that occasionally i notice a little sharpness in female vocals.

Yep, it does but not the sharpness (#) in musical terms, which would mean the pitch increase of acceleration. The S2 is absolutely free from that quality. You mean the sharpness in term of abrasiveness and roughness. Yep, welcome to the club – the plastic suspension is the cure. (Pay attention that the effect is less auditable in instrumental music). I however when I finish the single-stage Milq I will attack this problem again (2345th time) and will try to use the metal suspension again…

Rgs, The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-14-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 4603
Reply to: 4600
electricity...
HI Romy, thanks for the thoughtful reply. 

The electricity comment is interesting as today I put on some jazz music and the HF is very snappy, excellent! I feel like posting on AA to ask people's opinons if it's the electricity or if my concrete horns are going through a break-in period  8-)  .  The guy that cleans the S2s does re-charge the magnets, i'm going to send him my T-350 tweeters at same time, just in case I do want to give them a try above 12.5k in the future. I'll change the speaker placement this weekend for more toe-out, then re-try Bartoli Live in Italy again.

A bientot,
R Weissman
06-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 4608
Reply to: 4603
Electricity and different compression drivers’ diaphragms.

 RonyWeissman wrote:
The electricity comment is interesting as today I put on some jazz music and the HF is very snappy, excellent! I feel like posting on AA to ask people's opinons if it's the electricity or if my concrete horns are going through a break-in period  8-)  .  The guy that cleans the S2s does re-charge the magnets, i'm going to send him my T-350 tweeters at same time, just in case I do want to give them a try above 12.5k in the future. I'll change the speaker placement this weekend for more toe-out, then re-try Bartoli Live in Italy again.
Rony,

generally the better tweeter is the more sensitive it is for electricity. You might find at this site that over the years I was up in down over many tweeter solutions – in many instances I presume my judgment was clouded by the electricity problems, even I was familiar with them. Even knowing that bad electricity kills tweeters first it is still difficult to turn itself off from objective right or wrong sound when the damn electricity turned out to be good or bad.

You might find my comments about the subject worth reading:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/psaudio/messages/1/10526.html

However, leaving the electricity alone there is other subject that should be taken under consideration – the specific type of diaphragms that is being use in compression driver.

People who use compression driver know that the type of the cone the driver uses is highly responsible for the sound of the driver. The materials, the size, the masses and propagation of masses, the type of the suspension and it’s implementation, the venting patterns, the type and the depth of the damping, and many-many other things are the very key in compression drivers. There are drivers that play saves: a small size thermo-treated aluminum alloy with symbiotic surround as in some Altecs, the phenolic cones as in the older RCA midranges or EV tweeters and few others… Thos types of cones are OK for lover MF but they are quite transient-challenged for higher frequencies. Those cones that I call “slow cones” are not so much depending from the electricity problems. In another side if you have larger cone, more ringy material and more ringy suspension (and with less damping) then you have much more transient capacity in the driver and the driver become much more  sensitive to any fluctuation of electricity quality.

With metal suspended S2 you are in a very deaneries zone. The S2 does not have the HF sterility of TADs drivers and hard suspension of the Altec 802s. The cone is large, and the metal suspension is very resonance-wobbly. The suspension does not damp the cone (as the S2 plastic sustention does) but rather let it to ring and even accelerate the ringing. So you are in very vulnerable mode with metal suspension and while you use it the electricity should be perfect and the quality of your signal should be also very high. The metal suspended S2 acts in a way like a true ribbon in his sensitively to electricity. The difference is that ribbon with bad electricity produce noise but the S2 with bad electricity produces very wild and very ugly resonances…

AI for instance can not handle the metal suspended S2 but it means a little as it is only in context of my electronics and in context of my highly urban electricity. Your mileage might vary and in a “clear” environment I presume that metal suspended S2 might be useable…

Still, in your case when the “HF were very snappy, excellent”, I being me, would blame not the better electricity but the simplistic, crude and not demanding jazz music…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (6 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...  A typical convention......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     123  943205  07-16-2004
  »  New  Problems with horns: mid-range horns...  First or second order for 1" driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  73786  07-21-2004
  »  New  Chinese upperbass horn...  Some sensibility about bass reproduction...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     35  264395  08-08-2005
  »  New  Some horn writing by Thomas Dunker. ..  Some horn writing by Thomas Dunker. ...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  42223  01-14-2006
  »  New  S2 Hissing Sound..  Cleaning Time Revisited......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     12  77232  07-18-2006
  »  New  It’s mad, mad, mad... electricity...  It is great to hear from Clark...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1651  6201359  10-12-2006
  »  New  Make Your Own Horns..  Texture and Consistency...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  21848  01-26-2007
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