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07-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 221
Post ID: 26824
Reply to: 26816
Freak of nature?
As I was not present during the magic moment of the Dunnoys (or Dannoys), I can not assume anything but considering the initial aftermath documented here, perhaps that "moment" had more to do with stars/sun/moon lining up, DPOLS for a week or a specific recording matching the demands of the playback.
I can't get it through my head that the Dunnoys can even be close to offering playback over a large selection of classical genres. Chamber music maybe.
I fully understand the desire for just wanting to be part of the audience instead of booking the hall, the musicians, the conductor, selling tickets.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
07-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 222
Post ID: 26841
Reply to: 26792
B2 problem
 N-set wrote:
Only yesterday I started to get some interesting results after tuning the UK crossovers. But still not near to the sound I'm getting from my electrostatic headphone setup. I assume my Dannoy setup is quite compromised: one of the original crossovers is probably dry and one speaker had little bass, B2's input crap is still not bypassed and it produces some distortion, in lieu of a better solution I'm using the C1 pre. I want to push it to a logical end: bypass B2 input commutators, make my own pre a la Anthony with 801A, treat Reds' surrounds with the UK gentleman's solution to soften them. We will see what happens then.

I finally bypassed the B2 input board, keeping the original input impedance (soldered 1.5k/25k resistors at the inpout). This didn't change the sound much so far and my main problem persisted - one amp channel is -15dB down at bass (at 60Hz). This is for sure the amp not the speakers. I thought it was the input crap but it is sth more serious. Any B2 specialists?



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
07-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 223
Post ID: 26842
Reply to: 26841
Solved
It is not the amp but the Yamaha preamp that gives the problem. A good kick in my butt to finish the 801 pre a la Anthony.  Apologies for spamming.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
08-02-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 224
Post ID: 26847
Reply to: 26842
Bass for Dannoys?
After a provisional cleaning of my crappy Yamaha C2 preamp, I got +/- balanced bass and then made a bit of discovery: Changed the parallel R in the HF circuit of the UK crossover from 50R to 25R (and switched the xcover to the treble boost mode which did nothing). The motivation was to give more HF energy as the current listening space is hopelessly overdamped. This was an "a-ha! moment" ! Something started to appear. The sound is very different from a typical "audiophile sound", I sort of start to get the "different reference chart" thing as it's very much outside of the typical audio rooms. Musical, seductive with a bass I'd like to lick. It is still a far cry from the emotional involvement I'm getting with my electrostatic headphones and it is still "constipated" (forget big orchestras or opera at the moment). I'd like to try to break this barier and see what happens. One obvious direction is the preamp and I'm working on it. Another is getting a matching bass under 60Hz. Romy tried with AK151 with the Remedies but it didn't work. I was thinking of infinite baffles, two drivers per channel, reaching ~91dB. The only place I could eventually mount them is quite untypical -- hanging from the ceiling above the speakers. I'm fantasizing triangular manifolds with the openings firing towards the listening position. I have no experience with IB, so any comments welcome. Does this make sense? Romy have you tried your IB's with your Dannoys during "that event"?



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
08-14-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 225
Post ID: 26862
Reply to: 26847
Bass for Dannoys cont.
After fantasizing about an infinite baffle, I calculated what kind of structure I'd have to build (in lieu of an attic/crawlspace) and this is an obvious no-go. A more practical idea is a sealed box with two parallel ScanSpeaks per channel. This should be just about enough to match the sensitivity of Dannoys. 40-41Hz boxes should be ok. I'm thinking of suspending them from the ceiling. The space is too small to put them on the floor as Dannoys are only about 2m apart and 2.4m to the listening spot. The ceiling position will give  a ceiling reinforcement plus chance to time align them on an arch (or actually a half-sphere). Your opinions, gentlemen?

Subwooferidea.jpg



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
08-14-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 85
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #: 226
Post ID: 26863
Reply to: 26862
Good for you, Jarek
Sadly I have no experience with ceiling mounts, except at live venues…….. 
If it doesn’t work, you could stack them.  
Probably sound so good you’ll never turn on TV. 
But mostly I want to honor you for pursuing 
sound in your space. The Dannoys look fantastic,
and will no doubt bring you many sublime moments. What else matters?
-Mats


08-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 227
Post ID: 26869
Reply to: 26863
Stacking
Thanks Mats! Stacking is one option but I'm counting on +3dB of the ceiling reinforcement. The plan is to cross somewhere around 60Hz



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-22-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 228
Post ID: 26917
Reply to: 26869
Experience with Dannoy
Howdy all,
I have been playing with the Dunnoy concept since Romy discovered it and I agree that it is a very good improvement for Tannoy bass.
Dunnoy with reverb injection is a phenomenal experience. 
I have gold drivers not red but I tried both 10s and 15s in the Dunnoy configuration.
15s sound 4 times bigger than the 10s but the 10s mid bass is better (not surprising I suppose).
My observations is that the Dannoy concept makes an already very good wide bandwidth driver even wider. it pulls the Fs of the Tannoy way down without damaging its dynamics. It is a luxury to have such a big sound from such a small box.
Regarding bass integration, the passive radiator acts like a port in that it is IN phase around its Fs but OUT of phase below that. I found this makes adding another channel underneath challenging.
N-Set I think you will need to cross over waay lower, like around or below the Fs of the Scanspeak if your are considering a channel under Dunnoy. 


After playing with the Dunnoy configuration I feel there are a few things I have to offer. First one is time alignment is still really important. Scanspeak should be as close as possible to the Tannoy driver and set back to try and have a similar acoustic centre. The Scanspeak still resonates a lot of MF energy and that needs to integrate that MF with the Tannoy. IMO the Tannoy does its magic because of the wonderful integration of the mid and high unit, the wonderful consistency of dynamics across the two units and over the xover frequency so I feel time alignment of the Scanspeak (or any other drivers in Dunnoy) is important. It's this reason I feel it is probably very difficult to add a mid bass driver to Dunnoy and have it be better.  Adding more drivers to get bigger sound creates the problem of time aligning those drivers and that is not easy when the drivers are as physically big as they are and wide bandwith like these drivers are. Remember the Scanspeak is not filtered in this configuration.
If one needs Dunnoy to sound bigger I think going to a 15 is a good way to go. I strongly feel the Scanspeak needs to be the bottom driver as the radiator. The Fs is damn low so not much of a trade off. If one were to add more drivers to the Dannoy concept to have it sound bigger like adding the AK15 for example or adding more Tannoy drivers, I think the drivers need to share a common air spring so the Scanspeak can dampen both at the same time. 
Personally I don't think adding more to the Dunnoy will achieve better. The combination of the two is amazing. Having bass like that from a Tannoy and it also being in a tiny box is just great. The way the Scanspeak rides the Tannoy to pull it way down without damaging the dynamics is a very enjoyable.
I also think reverb injection is definitely worth while. How bass hangs in the room with the reverb injection is just so inviting and attractive. Defiantly recommended.
Ed

10-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 229
Post ID: 26918
Reply to: 26917
Yes!

Edgar, I completely miss you in all of your findings and I also was thinking about 15-in toy with a pair of sunspeak passive radiators. Indeed, Tannoys reinforced by sanspeak passive radiators is a magical configuration. I wonder do you drive them with Vfet amplification or not. You're finding that given configuration spin fhase at the bottom is also very accurate, I was trying for 2 months to add exceptionally well performing lower base to it, 15 Midbass driver and I never was able to have a result which would I recognized as improvement. I have a lot of open bottle array crossed at 20 cycles and it does complement Tannoys with Scanspeak but only in Audio sence. From musical perspective, in this configuration, lower base do not add anything. I do not know why but despite exceptional audio this lower base does not add to the system it's ability to conceive metaphors. The Tannoys with scanspeak is absolutely insane configuration which act in my perception as a gorgeous woman in stunning mini skirt which make my imagination to race and guess what is underskirt. Any lower base that I was trying to add to it act as addition of constructors boots to those gorgeous legs in mini scirt. It just acts as direct violation of aesthetics. My local audio friend Bill, who experimented in the same direction went into other direction and he replaced san speak with another possivly loaded 10 inch tannoy. It is very interesting proof but I would add not another passive Red but another active Red results Twitter and another passive one or to sanspeak. That kindness that sanspeak add to the bottom of Red in my view absolutely cannot be ignored. The only one shortcomings for that kindness that I was able to observe is that that kindness to come ever present and if music call for brutal force, dry and cold execution with insane dynamics then skan speak does it a bit more polite than I would like to. It might be fun to adopt Meitner IDAT algorithm and to make super transient and super dynamic signals handled by my Macondo and the rest by Dannoy….




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 230
Post ID: 26919
Reply to: 26917
Very interesting
Edgar, thank you for sharing your findings. The timing couldn't have been better as I have just re-assembled my Dannoys after months of idling (I liked the sound of Dannoys so much that I decided to put a hard wood parquet to add some sparkle to my room). I agree that the bass is absolutely gorgeous in the perceived extension and dynamics. It "makes it" for the Sound. Interesting findings about the lower bass. I didn't start any lower bass experiments due to the lack of time. Both your comments are rather discouraging. Perhaps better to invest time into a preamp idea I have been massaging for months.
Edgar, would you share details of the rest of your system (amps, pre, source, etc) and pics of your Dannoy realization? When you say SS close to the Tannoys, you mean along the vertical axis (I have about 39cm center to center) or the depth or both?




Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 231
Post ID: 26924
Reply to: 26918
It's hard to come back from the dynamic capability of horns to direct radiators...
The mini skirt analogy is a great fit. That is my experience.
Or maybe like that stunning girl has small breasts and one has know the joy of a good handful. There are ways for enhancement and while one could get more, the girl is no more beautiful and now a little less elegant... 
Another tannoy with tweeter disconnected but the woofer driven, sharing a common air spring with other tannoy and scanspeak, i think might be worth trying. with this config it would be easy to dial in the second woofer with just a coil making adjustment simple. having the reinforcement lower where you want it but keeping out of the midrange making time alignment/integration a little easier/less critical. I could try something like this but tbh am am quite satisfied as is for now. I only have a small room and my aims are not terribly ambitious. I am quite satisfied living with the beauty in the miniskirt as she is... 
I havent used Vfet and the rest of my audio system is nothing particular special. My analog source is not worth mentioning and for digital i'm running a Lavry DA10 and only on SPDIF so i am certainly no authority or particularly experienced in high end source units. I drive Dunnoy with a quite generic mid- century topology amp. Generic indirectly heated triodes up front and 4 x triode strapped pentodes on output. Not the most refined amp, very non offensive, a good compromise for reasonable power levels needed for Dunnoy.
I might be able to try the B2, a local guys has one not far from me.




10-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 26
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 232
Post ID: 26925
Reply to: 26919
Howdy Jarek
My comments are rather discouraging arn't they! Not my intention but hopefully helpful in the long run. 
Regarding time alignment i just wanted to raise the point i think it might be more relevant than initially anticipated by someone considering building this config. The scanspeak plays quite high and i hear quite alot of MF energy from it. This was offered in the context of the hit and miss results Romy and Bill had with Dunnoy, sometimes magic but sometimes not, and as a possibility, this might be relevant to that. Please know this is a strong suspicion for me and not something i have thoroughly tested. My suspicion arises from I felt I had better alignment with the 10 than the 15 as the depth of the 10 is closer to the scanspeak 10. I ran the 10 first and then modified the same boxes for the 15. The tannoy is mounted on the front of the box baffle and the SS on the back in an attempt t get acoustic centres closer. I am away but will send a photo through when I get back.
I would say horizontal time alignment probably more critical than vertical but they are both critical generally i suppose. You might be able to try mounting the SS on the back of your front baffle and see if you notice an improvement but i am not confidant it will be worth it, particularly if you are currently satisfied with what you are hearing. Or, given the distance between your two drivers you might be able to just quickly test if angling your speakers back and forth (adjusting the horizontal alignment of your drivers relative to your ear) alters your perception of the sound. quick and dirty test might help gauge the relevance for you. 
I want to reiterate that what i like about Dunnoy is the simplicity of the config. Most people can find a tannoy, order the scanspeak, find a box, slap them in and just like that you will have an outstanding loudspeaker. Very small box relatively, wide bandwith, sophisticated dynamics and very good tone. To get better or more would require a LOT more work, and look something like Macondo i imagine.
Hope that helps.
Ed

10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 233
Post ID: 26926
Reply to: 26918
Large Tannoys with strange passive radiators
I think I wrote In the past here, if you like the 10” Tannoy, why not try the 12” or 15”? The ones with rubber surround are not so good in my view (from CPA or DMT series as they have very restricted midrange) but the cloth surround Tannoys  are worth a try for sure. On a budget, the 12” ceiling Tannoys are sometimes for sale on eBay for not much money.
Another strange thought, but I have not tried this, if you like the sound from your SS passive driver,  maybe connect the terminals of the SS and drive the input of you subwoofer amp with the passive SS? No idea if this will work so do not make an idiot out of me more than necessary. Good luck to the subwoofer amp.
Also I would not mind to try any soft suspension 15” vintage driver as passive radiator, no one said the SS is the only appropriate driver. Possibly, even the a Tannoy 15” with rubber surround (it way work well as a passive radiator only) but remove the tweeter. As a result you will have a port in the center of the cone while the cone acts as a passive radiator. This is where I’m willing to be congratulated being an idiot, but this just may work, completely unpredictably.
For improvement of time alignment one can try mounting the SS radiator not on front or back of cabinet wall but top or bottom or side.
In other words, I think there is more to try here, mainly other larger Tannoys.
10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 234
Post ID: 26927
Reply to: 26925
Living with small breasts
Haha, great analogy Edgar! Actually while writing to you the previous mess, I was listening Dannoys the 1st time after laying down the parquet and that was sooo damn good! No idea if the parquet helped or what but it was mesmerizing (FM program with both recorded baroque music and live broadcast of contemporary). The sound was like sitting a bit deeper in a music hall, as opposed to front rows where everything is spitted in your face for good and for bad. Since I have a small room, that gave a slight hallucinogenic feeling as the sound (recessed position in a music hall) did not match the picture (my small room). So I can definitely live with small breasts and would rather spent the little time I have for audio on more important things down the chain than the subs.
  




Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 235
Post ID: 26928
Reply to: 26927
Repeating Accidental Success?
No idea how one blends in a random passive radiator, and I gave up on it after a year or two, many years ago. But if you can put your ear to the passive radiator and hear it plays up into the midrange, then you will probably want to use something with tone. I imagine there is the provervbial synergy between the particular version of the 10" Tannoy Red and the particular 10" Scanspeak, also the boxes that Romy happened to have on hand when he concocted the original speakers in question. So, are others looking for this same synergy, or a synergy of their own device? As far as using "similar-but different" drivers, the larger Tannoys do have a more "full" lower-mid sound than the smaller ones, for better or for worse, but they also, obviously, have a bigger jump from the cone fundamentals to the tweeter, as well, and the various drivers do sound different, one from the other.

It seems from following these threads that no one so far has been content to stay focused on recreating the accidental success of the original Dunnoy/Dannoy. Is this because no one can actually recreate the original, or is it because everyone has issues with these speakers that they'd prefer to improve on? For instance, don't we always say that one wants 20 dB headroom. Does this mean people are happy listening at 70 dB, or does it mean that something about the Danoy "offsets" the need for headroom? I still can't figure out how you can push the Red down to 50Hz with the original configuration and also get the headroom? While multiple Red drivers sans tweeters "sounds logical", it would take some work to avoid serious combing.


Paul S
10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 236
Post ID: 26929
Reply to: 26928
Wrong approach
IMHO, wrong approach Paul. Theoreticizing and trying to use your intellect will not work here, just build them. I think you have already spent more time trying to understand what is happening than it would take to hunt a pair of Red's no pun intended. I can give you my enclosure plans if you want.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 237
Post ID: 26930
Reply to: 26928
The whole thread is a nonsense and accidental result
Caused by a sympathetic coincidence of a weather,  good sex during the previous night , and five hundreds of other elements.  Smoke the same cigar,  drink Croatian whisky and have your cats piss in the corner and you may get close... Smile 
10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 238
Post ID: 26931
Reply to: 26929
Dont bother . The whole thread is a nonsense
And accidental results 
10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 239
Post ID: 26932
Reply to: 26929
New Age Physicist?
Jarek, don't worry about me spending too much time trying to figure out the Dannoys. For one thing, I've already spent several decades charting vintage and newer "special" drivers and sound. For another, I am already years into my own speaker project that more-or-less combines the "knowledge" I've accrued with a death defying leap of faith. And no matter what you say, everyone winds up trying one thing and then another, with some sort of "rationale" behind the moves; that's just how it is. It's not like one's intellect is simply put out to pasture. Rather, the awareness is honed and refined into a sort of intuition that seems to "work better" in terms of applicable aesthetics. If people are happy at 70 dB, I have no problem with it; just asking, matter-of-fact, since that's what Romy reported. Not to mention, it's hardly purely personal or random to try to replicate someone else's stated success by copying what are presumed to be the main components and features of what is assumed to be a or even the primary apparatus of the successful matrix.


Best regards,
Paul S
10-25-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 240
Post ID: 26933
Reply to: 26932
Chapeau bas
 Paul S wrote:
For one thing, I've already spent several decades charting vintage and newer "special" drivers and sound.

I wish I had all that time to experiment.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
Page 12 of 15 (294 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 10 11 12 13 14 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  637978  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  26409  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  9691  11-09-2021
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