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Horn-Loaded Speakers
Topic: Surround

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Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-20-2010
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OK, the preceding thread what I research the subject of Midbass Horns and Real Estate have finished with great success.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=11190

I found and got a house that I like very much and the house has a lot of good Midbass options. Even though the listening room does not sound at the level I would like it to be but I feel that it is normal. I did not work with room too hard as I am doing remodeling of house nowadays; you know how it works… The room will sound much better what I turn my full attention to it.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=13235

However, as I concluded in the room thread above the Macondo needs a help of extra Midbass channel – so, with all theoretical  formal brainstorming the Midbass Project  will we my very next audio project as soon I return to audio full time. I have made today an inventory of drivers that I might use for Midbass Project. I have a lot, perhaps 18 drives that I might choose from.  I have a DSET that will be driving the channels. I have found a carpenter with skills and equipment who will be able to help me. I have a budgeted the project and have the carpenter agreement to work off this budget.

I started this thread as a dedicate recourse where I will be posting about the project’s thoughts, ideas, progress and results. Perhaps I started this thread to have an additional encouragement to actually start the project.

Probably the next month I will be assessing different option – where I will be building the Midbass channels, what kind it will be and how it will be integrated with room. Of cause it is not secret that the Midbass horns are at a very stop of my short list of option but I will evaluate all opportunities.

I always was dreaming about dedicated Midbass channels. I also have absolutely clear vision how I would like them to sound – in fact the exactness of this vision is even scares me. Went I listen my Macondo now I know absolutely precisely when and how the Midbass channel’s Sound shall be introduced. All that I need is juts to do it…

Rgs, Romy the Cat

Posted by eduardo on 05-21-2010
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started this thread as a dedicate recourse where I will be posting about the project’s thoughts, ideas, progress and results. Perhaps I started this thread to have an additional encouragement to actually start the project.

Very interesting to follow your project. I will be watching your progress from now on. Under the  kind feelings you have (I know very well)   about the sound you want to  get from midbass I doubt you can fail in getting there.That is it.
Anyhow , midbass-upperbass is about the interesting audio range to design - think - and- build  perhaps due to size of horn involved and "density and importance of sound" it must produce. Enjoy it .

Regards

Eduardo

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-21-2010
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This weekend if I have time I will be doing the testing of my driver deciding which one I will be using. The framework of testing will be the following: a single driver, closed at 150Hz first order, mounted in infinite baffle and working along with Macondo MF, and upperbass channels, no lower bass and not tweeters. I am sure that I will be able to select the best sounding and the most interestingly sounding diver among those that I have but how this “best sounding” will manifest it in the back chamber of perspective horns I have no idea.  I am considering to load it to 8” buffle hole….

Rgs, Romy the Cat

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-22-2010
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I set up today the framework in which I will be testing my Vitavox 15 inchers. It is a wooden frame from my bathtub with a driver screws to it, the massive sliding doors that squash the driver from both sides and cardboard that cover the wholes. This is a very rough parody to an infinite baffle configuration but I think for the purpose I meant to use it this configuration will work as I care about the difference in my drivers, not about the ultimate performance. I use external Marchant X26 crossover and drive it with a full range Melquiades. BTW, one of the full-range Melquiades blew up, literally with good size exposure in the belle of the beast. I thing one of the high voltage caps got burned. I do not have an audio working bench set up in my new home, so I will live it as is for now. I actually question if I would need audio working bench but it is another subject.

MibbassProject_DriversTestingFramework.JPG

So, the playground for my 15 inchers is set not I need to listen them.

The Cat
 

Posted by zako on 05-22-2010
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Ive seen better outside toilets to shit in,,,But go ahead with your expierament.

Posted by Paul S on 05-22-2010
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Romy, are these drivers going to wind up in the ceiling horns?  I currently use 15" Audax PR380M2 paper drivers in conservatively-tuned BR bins, X/O'd 3rd order at ~ 125 Hz. I do this because I need the gain with my current amp set-up. These drivers are not really directional, but IMO they are petering out, tone-wise, at ~100 Hz.  This frequency range pretty much splits the 12" and 15" drivers, IMO, but I plan to try the Stellavox 12" to fill that tonal gap.  Below 100 Hz, the 15" is very nice, and it is not so much that it is "bad" above 100 Hz as it just trails off, if you know what I mean.  Some of the bass guitar drivers have nice tone up to 400 or 500 Hz, or even more.  Unfortunately, few of these do well below 55 or 60 Hz.

Best regards,
Paul S

Posted by msaudio on 05-22-2010
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When i Moved in my new house in july 2000, it took me 6 months to get my speakers and general system togeather and working. The narrow band that your vitavox 15 inchers will be working in, how does that relate to your infinite baffle? 60Hz to 350Hz is the range that you seek so how does this test jig see 120Hz with out being loaded in the rear of it? I also notice that it is your right channel amp that is blown up with powersupply problems, then we wonder why the Lf is not working correct on that channel? Do you have good insurance? For a good doctor.   Preaching Horn Religion    MSAUDIO

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-23-2010
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I was trying the drivers in my infinite baffle parody configuration and I have to admit that that all of them sounded not good. There is not even a fraction of tone that am loosing and from any other quantifiable subjective point of view the driver did not show up themselves good. This test itself does not mean anything and I will discard the result. I do not want to go into the depth of T/S, loading , bass imperfection of Marchand XM26 crossover or the imperfection of sealing in order to prove anything to myself.  I just declare the result as not conclusive and will forget about it.

The Cat

Posted by msaudio on 05-23-2010
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You sound like you are not happy with your results from your parody? I am sure your got some info from this for next stage, that we will hear about in the future. Preaching Horn Religion   MSAUDIO

Posted by jessie.dazzle on 05-24-2010
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I realize the question as to how you will get mid-bass (horns vs other solutions) is still open.

If you do go ahead with horns, you should be able to make them so that they'll accept most any 15" driver, which means you could use the horns in making the decision on drivers.

If you go with some sort of direct radiating enclosure, then you'll likely have to decide on drivers ahead of time in order to get the volume of the box right for the driver.

About your experiment: Sort of a brilliant approach, but the improvised baffle and any wind outside may be eating up tone. You might consider buying a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" CDX plywood (cheap, rough, for exterior use), cut a hole in it, and use it in place of the improvised baffle (still placed in the sliding doors).

Alternatively, you might cut the plywood to fit exactly into an interior doorway (not the sliding glass doors), cut a hole in it, mount it so that it closes off the doorway to a room, then mount the driver. You could of course do the same with a cheap door, but they are hollow.

Later you can use the plywood for an instant, erect-as-needed audio work bench, supported on folding metal saw horses and a couple 2x4s studs; keep the round cutout as a trap door, it will come in handy.

jd*

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-24-2010
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 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I realize the question as to how you will get mid-bass (horns vs other solutions) is still open.

If you do go ahead with horns, you should be able to make them so that they'll accept most any 15" driver, which means you could use the horns in making the decision on drivers.

If you go with some sort of direct radiating enclosure, then you'll likely have to decide on drivers ahead of time in order to get the volume of the box right for the driver.

Nope, it is not the question that I faced. I very much down that I go for any form of direct radiation.  Most likely it will be a pair of horns but I am trying to forecast WHAT kind horn they might be and HOW they will interact with the room. Ironically I have multiple options. Yes, the midbass horns might be in front wall, in side walls, in back wall above (attic), from basement, and even stand-alone in the room. I need to select one direction that I will be attacking. I think it will take for me a month or so to figure the things out.

The caT

Posted by Romy the Cat on 05-30-2010
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Looking that my attic place is very much triangle I am contemplating an experiment with triangular horn. The idea that lead me there was Balalaika. Balalaika is Russian 3-strings musical instruments that has unique sound. One of the attribute of the unique is that it is really loud. The reason is that the deck is triangular and opposite walls have no reflections. So, the sound entering the deck get infinitely reflected.  Balalaika has own compressed and a bit “closed” sound but it wanted to be wide bandwidth – something that I do not need and against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balalaika

I wonder why do not used the same idea somehow for a construction of a horn? Any brainstorming ideas are welcome. For the encouragement here is Russian Balalaika master Aleksei Arkhipovsky plays 1928 instilment.




Posted by msaudio on 05-30-2010
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The guy is real good, and i would like to find some of his stuff on CD. Can you find his music in the states?   Can you post some pictures of basement?     PREACHING HORN RELIGION   MSAUDIO

Posted by Paul S on 05-30-2010
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Never in my life have I heard a plywood horn of any description that was other than a resonator.  So, although I cannot draw on my successes, I do have a long list of failures to go on, to add to my extensive experience as a builder.  Based on my experience, it could be quite a trial to build and tune a plywood horn in the vaulted ceiling, and it's hard to imagine how it could be profitable for a craftsman to work for a fixed price, with "successful completion" tied to an opinion regarding the sonic results of the end-use horn.

Another area of difficulty facing the developer of horns like this is the fact that it will only be possible to evaluate the units in situ, along with the possible need to re-tune them as the rest of the system is developed around them.

How would one go about determining a starting point for the horn profiles?  What sort of materials would one use that could be hung on the existing rafters?

Best regards,
Paul S


Posted by Romy the Cat on 06-12-2010
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I think if everything goes as I planed then this month I will start my Midbass Horn project. I thought to do it later but I am too sick and tired without my main playback – so, I would rather to do it sooner than later. At present time I am strategizing what it will be, of course the attic solution is leading all the way, no wonder as I was buying this house with this intend.   If you look at the Page #8 of the Midbass Horns and Real Estate thread then you refresh the idea.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=9&PostID=11190

Here is how the “Triangular Wall” looks like – the horns will be on this wall (where the air-conditioning ducks now)…. In the time alight position, invisible in the room and now screwing the room decor- God, will I be able to do it – the dream of idiot might come through!!!

TheTriangularWall.JPG

Later on this month I will have a framing specialist to inspect my attic and give me the numbers: how much space I will have. This will greatly determine what kind horn I will be building. Meanwhile the following question I am contemplating:

1)      Each horn will be 2-4 sections, so where to slice it? If we presume that section would have own resonance then what would be a difference between 5-5-3 feet and 4-4-4 feet? Probably it would be a good idea to have all section of different length. However, why the different length but not the length mass of the each section? I think I will go for different length and different mass but I still will think about it. I would like one section to me master and the rest sections to be slaves - from resonant perspective. This will give a further control after the horn is built and installed.  I still think how I would do it….

2)      The wall’s type material. This is complicated. The leading idea is to use two layers of plywood of different thickness and to position the layers perpendicular. Then the question is: what guy to use? Then the question is if to bolt the layers. Perhaps not to bolt but to use the wood-made screws…

3)      The material itself – what to use. I am wide open from any type of wood to synthetic panels (like cement panels). Perhaps it might be a combination of organic and synthetic layers.

4)      To make horn from the same material of to make different section from different material.

5)      Where to buy the material in bulk quantities? I have budget the cost of horns materials around $1000

I would like to have my answers to those strategic questions before I will start drawings…

Rgs, Romy the Cat

Posted by msaudio on 06-12-2010
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The woofers need 2 be matched. What is the Resonance frequency of the cones of the woofers? You want to mount the woofers on front side of baffle or rear? Are you going 2 use dual 15 woofers on each side? Don't ruin your house by putting them in your attic. Cut out the baffle first, mount your drivers and do some tests with 1/2 OSB, it is about $8.00 a sheet. just build 1 as a jig so you can fine tune. Then after you have perfected your horn and it meets your guide line, then build a pair heavy duty.   Preaching Horn Religion  MSAUDIO

Posted by Romy the Cat on 06-13-2010
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If I succeed to make my midbass horn at attic then I will face another problem that I do not know how to address at this point. The horns will be powered from Melquiades bass channels – it means it will use a good 70 feet speaker cable. If I go with Copper wire then it will have per foot:

4 ga  - .000292
6 ga  -   .000465
8 ga   -  .000739
10 ga  - .00118
12 ga  -  .00187
14 ga  - .00297
 
Let presume that I will go for 12ga cable it means that I will have: 0. 00187 * 70 = 0.139R. This permanent impedance is a bit bothers me. It is not the impedance distributed in the secondary of the output transformer but it I impedance that voice coil get increased. This perm impedance only adds compression to the sound of driver. It is very possible that for my 16R driver the .1R will be negligible but who knows how much negligible is negligible. I am a bit afraid to go with thicker wire as it usually comes with less interesting upper bass – the sound feels like become “hollow”. Sure, it possible to get involved in the cabling wars then, and I am sure I will. What are the alternatives? To run a long line level interconnect and to put the amps on attic? To fire-dangers in my view… I was thinking to do it with fire sensor above the amps in attic and close circuit TV monitor but I kind of getting more complicated then I would like it to be…
 
The Cat

Posted by Paul S on 06-13-2010
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May I at least ass-u-me that you plan to high pass these horns? If so, go ahead and figure that in, too. In any case, just looking at 70', impedance is not the only number you'll be running up, and the last place you want this load is for LF channels. I'd try to find a way around it.

Did you ever say how the "multi-channel" aspect of your newly enhanced Placette works? The idea would be to eat as much of the distance as possible with fully buffered lines while still allowing the amps to be "safe", perhaps even visable. Anything you could do to shorten the LF speaker cables would be a plus.

And I 2nd the cheap mock-up, to start, or at least try to think of a way to break the project into stages, to avoid the expensive disaster.



Best regards,
Paul S


Posted by jessie.dazzle on 06-15-2010
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Thinking about your options, I would locate the driver at the top inside corner of the horns (horns viewed while looking into mouth), and develop the horn flare from there. See explanations below:

Romy Mid-bass 03.jpg


Romy Mid-bass 04.jpg


Driver High In FV 01.jpg
Driver located high and inside: "Hypotenus wall" of horn is parallel with ceiling > Good transition to ceiling; vertical walls of horns are parallel to each other > Maintains most L/R separation; Easiest to build > Only one curved wall per horn

The following solutions I would consider less optimal, getting progressively worse with progress down the page:

Driver Low In FV 01.jpg
Driver located low and inside: Vertical walls of horns are parallel to each other > L/R separation still ok; horizontal wall is parallel to floor of room; hypotenus wall is not parallel to ceiling, but intersects ceiling at an angle > Transition to ceiling not ideal; Easiest to build > Only one curved wall per horn

Driver Centered FV 01.jpg
Driver centered: Vertical walls of horns are converging toward each other > Some compromise in L/R separation; hypotenus wall is not parallel to ceiling, but intersects ceiling at an angle > Some compromise in transition to ceiling; Most difficult to build > All walls curved

Driver High FV 01.jpg
Driver located high and outside: Hypotenus wall of horn is parallel with ceiling > Good transition to ceiling; vertical walls of horns are converging toward each other > Most compromise in L/R separation; Difficult to build > Two curved walls per horn

This also demonstrates that the horns will not destroy the aesthetics of your living room.

jd*

Posted by Romy the Cat on 06-15-2010
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Yes, Jessie, the idea of the triangle horns with some kind of location of the drivers is what I was thinking as well. This week my attic, the walls, the beams and all the rest of the things will be expected and we will convert it to AutoCAD. Then I will decide what space is available for me and from there I will conclude what kind horns I might end up with. My preliminary inspection last tow days indicate the I will have much less useable space then I would like it to be as some of the main frame element are on the way that significantly reduce the size of the available mouths. I do not know. Until I have a full lay of the land with dimensions and distance I would hold my breath. I am looking at the alternative versions, if my attic scenario will not go. I do have some but none of them as elegant as if I put them in attic.

The Cat

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